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Mr. Robertson: I admire the hon. Gentleman both for tabling the new clause and for that intervention, but, if I may say so, the new clause demonstrates rather muddled thinking and a typical Liberal Democrat wish to have it

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both ways. At the time of the general election, no commitment was made to do other than raise the basic state pension by more than the retail prices index. That is what the Government have done, and that is what has led to all the objections from pensioners. That is how the 75p increase came about.

New clause 8 is open-ended. New clause 36 is similarly open-ended, in that it ties the Government down to a certain level of spending. Those who study the figures will become very alarmed by them.

I have some sympathy with what is being proposed. I could have refrained from speaking in the debate--[Interruption.] Liberal Democrat Front Benchers chuckle, but it would have been easy for me to say nothing. I believe that there should be a better deal for pensioners who have already retired, but I also believe that we should think much more deeply about how pensioners of the future should be catered for. The state pension requires a great deal of radical thought, and it should not be a matter of party politics. It is too important for that.

Mr. Tony Benn (Chesterfield): I rise to support my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. McDonnell), and to look back a bit at the history of the issue. This is the centenary of the foundation of the Labour party. When Keir Hardie arrived, he demanded unemployment pay, and they laughed at him. "Work or maintenance," he said. "Wholly unrealistic: open-ended commitment," he might have heard in response.

I campaigned in 1945, when Labour won the election. The first thing that the Government did was raise the widows pension from 10 shillings to 26 shillings a week, when we were absolutely bankrupt. They did not have the money, but they had the will. What is lacking now is not the money, but the will. Later, the Cabinet--I am proud to have been a member of that Cabinet, in the days of what is now dismissed and rubbished as old Labour--linked pensions with earnings. That constituted a recognition of the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington that those who contribute to the increased wealth that we now enjoy are entitled to some part of that wealth. After all, pensioners looked after their children when they were young; it is not abnormal to expect the new generation to help the old.

People forget that we are talking about a national insurance scheme. Let us take an example: there must be such cases. A man starts work at the age of 16, works for 50 years, never marries, is never unemployed, is never ill, and dies the day after his 65th birthday. He has poured money into the national insurance scheme, and has received nothing from it. What frightens me about the Government's argument is the use of the word "target". It is an aggressive word, which is normally used in wartime: people say that they will target this and target that. Moreover, once people introduce the idea of targeting, they are really saying that the whole principle of the welfare state must be rewritten.

Why should the wealthy be able to call on the police when they can afford to pay for their own policing? Why should the wealthy be allowed to use the national health service, when they can afford to pay for their own health care? Why should the wealthy be allowed to call in the fire brigade, rather than returning to the old system of insurance? Under that system, those who were insured had a plate put on their houses and, if a house was on fire,

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the insurance company would put the fire out. It is the principles underlying the Government's argument that I find difficult.

It would not take long for the Government to say that they were targeting the poorest patients. That would mean saying, "If you need health care, we will help you, but you will be means-tested before you are given your operation." People would be means-tested before they went to school. They are already means-tested before they go to college. It is a question of will and philosophy. We are told every day that the Government's values are the same as the historic Labour values, but I am afraid that they are not.

I have been a pensioner for 10 years today. The pensioners who come to my surgery are really angry. Let us make no mistake about this: people who have voted Labour all their lives say, "No one takes any notice of us. We cannot withdraw our labour, because we have already retired." They welcome the free television licences, the extra heating allowances and all the other little things, but some older pensioners remember the means test in the 1930s, when a man would be given some money only if he sold the piano. Not many people will remember that, but we hear stories about it.

6.45 pm

The whole idea of targeting is wrong. The pension is a benefit as of right: people pay for it while they are working. Moreover, as my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) said, the administrative costs are almost nothing, because everyone receives the pension--which also means that people do not experience the humiliation of having to expose their finances to some probing officer.

Income support, or what used to be called national assistance, is a safety net, which is entirely different from a benefit as of right. We do not want old people to feel that they are on probation. Pensioners have said to me, "I feel as if I have committed an offence. I must open my books before I can have enough to live on."

I urge the Government to think again. I know that there is a shortage of money, but I think that a shortage of will is the real problem. The health service was set up when we were bankrupt, and there were no charges for that. I am the last Member who sat in this place when Aneurin Bevan was Minister for Health and I heard his resignation speech when prescription charges were introduced. If we are not careful, in the name of modernisation, we shall erode what we are all about--the idea of a national insurance scheme with universal benefits.

A progressive income tax is about asking richer people to pay more to keep that scheme going. I am in favour of asking such people to pay more. I do not see why we should ring-fence the rich, and say that, whatever the Labour Government do, they will never ask the rich to pay more, because they will not increase income tax--but, of course, poorer people will be targeted and supervised and watched.

I merely want to convey some of the disappointment, disillusionment, anger and frustration that is felt about the way in which this has been handled. The Government would be ill-advised to disregard my argument, because it is one that will also have to be tackled on polling day.

Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead): I want to echo what hon. Members on both sides of the House have said about the view of many pensioners on our record so far.

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Labour Members have rightly congratulated the Government on much of what they have done, which has significantly increased the income of some pensioners. The winter fuel allowance has been increased to £150 a week: that is a significant increase. [Hon. Members: "£150 a year."] I mean £150 a year, but I hope that, after a few more Parliaments, what I said will come about. We also welcome the free television licences. However, it would be wrong for Ministers to assume that those two significant moves have reduced the genuine sense of grievance felt by many pensioners, a number of whom are extremely poor.

Although the minimum income guarantee may help many pensioners, it will not help all of them, and it has led to a number of grievances--as my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Dr. Jones) pointed out--on the part of people who have saved, and have managed to save only small amounts or could acquire only small additions to their company pension schemes. Those people are disqualified from the minimum income guarantee, although their income is less than that of others who qualify for income support and receive the guarantee.

I received two letters recently--neither from a constituent. One came from a pensioner, who, as a widow, went back to work and acquired a small pension. She is £7 a week worse off than her neighbour, who did not acquire a smaller pension but who qualifies for the minimum income guarantee. She does not begrudge her neighbour that--her neighbour might well have saved a little, as the letter suggests, but did not do so--but she does not feel that she should be penalised.

The second letter was from a pensioner in the east end. As she, too, receives a small work pension, she is not eligible for the minimum income guarantee. She is paying full rent and full council tax. After paying those two bills, she is left with £14.50 a week to pay for everything else. We would be foolish to think that there is not--to put it most gently--real concern about the issue not only among voters generally, but among some pensioners.

As Dr. Johnson--like my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn), although in different words--said:


The Dissolution of Parliament is the hanging process in which we have to go back and face our voters. At this point in the Parliament, there is much in their pensions record for which we can give the Government credit, but I hope that we will not be fighting the next general election only on that record. The two new clauses in this group have been tabled to expand on that record.

The Government always have to think about how £1 billion should be spent. As my hon. Friend the Member for Selly Oak said, generally speaking, and for obvious reasons, the older the pensioner, the poorer he or she will be. If they have savings, they will have had to eat into them to ensure their own survival. Older pensioners have had less opportunity to make higher wages and to save greater sums, and they have had less chance of joining a company pension scheme. Therefore, although some older pensioners are--thank goodness--well placed, generally speaking, older pensioners are the poorest.

When the debate ends, I hope that many hon. Members will vote for new clause 8. I say that not because I disagree with the sentiments that have been expressed--

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or that we shall hear expressed later--on the general need for an increase in the state pension, but because I believe that the Government could most effectively use any given sum by significantly increasing the state pension for the oldest pensioners. However, as Labour Members have already said, it will not be adequate for us to go into a general election with only one single such action. We require a medley of actions to improve significantly the position of those pensioners who have not been able to include themselves in the bracket of those who are "well placed".

For 20 years, when Labour was in opposition, I did not agree that we should increase the state pension in line with earnings. I am not likely now, when Labour is in government, to have a Pauline conversion on the matter--although I appreciate the strength of feeling on the issue of those who have always believed that the pension should be increased in line with earnings. However, I hope that Ministers, especially those who are arguing that we should do even more for pensioners, will use this debate to strengthen their hand--so that when we are "hanged in a fortnight" at the hands of the electorate, our pensions record is even better than it is now.

The standard of living of some of our constituents is disgraceful, and any human being in our community should not have to survive in that way. The issue is urgent, and it will be pressed in the Lobby. However, when we press it, we shall do so to strengthen the hand of Ministers who are arguing not that all is fine on the western front, but that much more needs to be done.


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