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Mr. Webb: I shall make a brief contribution, reflecting on some of what has been said so far. I thank the hon. Members for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Dr. Jones) and for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) and the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) for their support for the principle of higher pensions for older pensioners. The right hon. Member for Birkenhead has been such a powerful advocate of the cause that I find myself receiving letters from pensioners asking why I do not follow his lead on that.
I should like to comment on the Conservative approach to the new clauses. The contribution of the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr. Robertson) was thoughtful as far as it went. He said that he was concerned about today's pensioners, but did not support a means-tested response, a universal response or a targeted response by age. It was not clear where that rejection of all three options--the two advocated in the new clauses and the third in the minimum income guarantee--left the Conservatives. I am not sure whether we are going to hear from those on the Conservative Front Bench.
Mr. Webb:
That is reassuring. The hon. Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts) has said that the Conservatives would simply have put 75p on the state pension and that any further response would have to wait for a manifesto. We have reached a sad state when the supposed principal Opposition party has no policy on the basic state pension.
The Government have accepted the principle of a higher pension for the over-75s by introducing the free television licence for those pensioners only. When the Chancellor announced that in the Budget, he said that he had been asked to put money on the pension but was going to use television licences, presumably because of the political attractiveness of the issue rather than any reason of substance.
When asked why the extra money was not put on the basic state pension, Treasury Ministers say that it is because the benefit is taxable. As we have heard, many of us support taxable universal benefits, with the better-off paying something back, freeing up extra money for the basic pension, so the fact that the benefit is taxable is no defence at all.
The other defence is that the money would not go to the poorest pensioners, but, as the hon. Member for Selly Oak said, the poorest pensioners are those who do not take up their entitlements. The proposals in the new clauses are well targeted and would benefit the poorest pensioners, so I do not know why the Government do not support them.
Two new clauses are on offer. New clause 8 is our party policy. New clause 36, on the earnings link, is not but we will support it because we now have a Government who do not believe in the basic state pension. They had hundreds of millions of pounds to give to pensioners, and the money has gone on the means test, the capital limits, the television licence, the prescriptions, the winter fuel
payments--everything but the basic state pension. We support the idea that the basic state pension should have not a funeral march but a future. Our preferred mechanism is new clause 8, but if that does not succeed we will support new clause 36 as a statement of our continuing belief in the basic state pension.
Mrs. Alice Mahon (Halifax):
I support new clause 36. I welcome the help given to pensioners in the Budget. I am a practical person, and I have the figures. In Halifax, 18,000 pensioners were helped by the increase in the winter fuel allowance and by the free eye tests. Those measures are worth £3 a week to a household, so they should not be ignored. Because people seem to live a long time in West Yorkshire, I also welcome the free television licences from which thousands in my constituency will benefit, but I give notice that I would like the qualifying age to come down to 65 in the next Budget.
I also welcome the abolition of VAT on fuel, the help with transport and the increase in the savings threshold. Furthermore, I am aware that the allocation of £8 million to Calderdale and Kirklees health authority will help pensioners more than any other group--and quite rightly, as they introduced the national health service and fully deserve that help.
However, I am firmly convinced, and always have been, of the arguments for restoring the earnings link. That is why I shall vote for new clause 36. What is more, I believe that I speak for the majority of pensioners, especially in Halifax, when I say that they need a substantial rise in the basic pension now, and the restoration of the earnings link as soon as possible.
I listen to pensioners. Before tonight's debate, I looked through all the submissions to the Green Paper "A new contract for welfare: partnership in pensions". One response was a booklet, "The Unwanted Generation", published by the National Pensioners Convention. In the foreword, Jack Jones, who has been a stalwart fighter for pensioners, says:
If we are genuinely committed to helping pensioners--the Budget proves to some extent that we are--and want to convince a quarter of the people in our society that we will give them the security in old age that they deserve, we must restore the link with average earnings.
I have listened for years to the argument that wealthy pensioners will benefit if we restore the link. So what? They have contributed, too. I want to keep them in the system, contributing to the NHS and to everything else that makes society worth while. We have a tax system and we could use it, paying out at one end and taking at the other. There is nothing wrong with redistribution. I was brought up on it in my many, many years in the Labour party.
I give the last word to Baroness Castle and Professor Peter Townsend, two eminent fighters for social justice if ever there were two. In line with what everyone else with a real interest in pensioners said in response to the Green Paper, their excellent pamphlet, "We CAN afford the Welfare State"--I believe that, as one of the richest countries in the world, we can--said:
Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde):
I support new clause 36. It was, however, right and proper that my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) and others paid tribute to the Government's achievements. I sincerely believe that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the Government are genuinely committed to creating a more tolerable society, as reflected in matters as diverse as constitutional reform, the peace process in Northern Ireland and tackling racism and other evils that bedevil our society.
That more tolerable society is a wholly admirable objective, but our society is intolerable because of the demeaning position and the humiliation that our elderly people suffer. In the past few days, several of my elderly constituents have said that they warmly welcome the increase in the winter fuel allowance and the concession on television licences. Down the years, I have supported those measures, admirably campaigned for by my hon. Friends the Members for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) and for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) and others who have worked to make life more tolerable for our elderly citizens.
We have to do more, and one of our objectives, as a party in government, with the history to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) referred, is to ensure that life becomes more tolerable for our elderly people. The other day, an old fellow, when talking about his bitter disappointment with the Government, reminded me--I confess that I needed reminding--that it was Charles de Gaulle who said that old age is a shipwreck. He told me that what makes old age so hazardous for him and for many of his neighbours is the rottenness of the treatment that they suffered under Tory Governments and the present Government's failure to do more for them, so I make that plea to the Government: they must seriously address the plight of elderly people.
I guess that I am not alone in having an elderly forum in my constituency; I think that just about every constituency in the UK now has such a forum. My local one is led by a formidable female by the name of Mrs. Nell McFadden. As people say in the west of Scotland, if she is angry with someone, she does not miss
them and hit the wall. At some heated meetings that I have attended in recent times, she and her colleagues have said to me that they are bitterly disappointed although they greatly appreciate what has been done by the Government, which is in dramatic contrast with how they were treated by the odd job lot opposite when they were in power for so long.
I tell my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. McDonnell) that, in Scotland, disaffected elderly constituents do have a choice. Very few of them vote Conservative, rightly, but they can choose to vote for the infant Scottish Socialist party or the Scottish National party, both of which play to the gallery on the issue. [Interruption.] I remember Ayr well, and so should the Conservative party because it was the first election that it had won in many years. There are no Conservative Members representing Scotland in this place. I suspect that that will last for some years, but that is another story.
If we are to honour our obligations to elderly citizens, we must lift them out of poverty. Up to now, we have failed them because we have not done that. With regret, I shall vote against the Government. I will vote for new clause 36 because it has long been my aim to restore the link, which was cruelly taken away from elderly people by the Conservatives when they were in power.
We published our written submissions (Pensions, not Poor Relief) in March 1998. They amounted to a comprehensive and sustainable programme of reform, taking account of the needs of both today's and tomorrow's pensioners. We stressed the need to make good the loss of the value of the basic pension resulting from the breaking of the link with average earnings, and to restore the link for the future.
I could have brought along a dozen publications giving such advice in response to the Green Paper, and I really wish that the Government had taken that advice.
We must resurrect the basic pension as the foundation of security in old age for everyone. This means the restoration of the earnings link for future annual upratings.
I believe that, and I hope that many hon. Members will join us in the Lobby tonight.
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