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Dr. Lynne Jones: My hon. Friend points to the growing gap. Has not that gap grown while the basic state pension has been linked to prices, not earnings?
Kali Mountford: If my hon. Friend reads the report closely, she will find that there has been a huge increase in occupational and private pensions, which have changed what we should do for pensioners. We must target resources on people who have never had access to occupational or private pensions, which is why I support the second state pension, which will give money to carers, people with disabilities and those on low incomes who have not had access to second pensions. The minimum income guarantee, which includes the safeguard of a link with earnings, will lift people in poverty out of it. We must do something to close the poverty gap.
I have heard nothing in the debate that would help to close the gap. We want to lift people out of poverty and make a real difference to their lives, and the Government's pensions policies do that. I have heard nothing to make me think that a return to a link with earnings would make an instant difference to people's lives.
Mr. Field:
My hon. Friend says that she has heard nothing said that would lessen the gap between richer and poorer pensioners. In fact, we are having two debates, and one of them is about ensuring a much more substantial state retirement pension for the oldest pensioners. Does anything in the volume to which she has referred disprove the point that one of the most effective moves we could make to combat poverty among the oldest pensioners would be an increase of, say, £15 in the state pension for people aged over 80?
Kali Mountford:
Obviously, a sudden huge increase would put money in people's pockets. How could I dispute that? We all know that the oldest pensioners receive the least and are the most likely to be in poverty. That is why I support the £150, which, rather than going through hoops, goes straight into people's pockets without a means test, and which is not discounted against means-tested benefits. I support it as a quick, efficient and effective means of getting money to people.
We have taken great strides towards helping those in the greatest need, including policies such as free television licences for those aged over 75. Some people in my constituency have said that that is patronising, but several have stopped me in the street to say that they are pleased with what I am doing and that it has changed their lives--
and that does not happen often. An elderly constituent told me that she had received a £100 cheque in the same week as a £130 fuel bill. That makes a significant difference to people's lives; and that elderly person told me that she will be 75 this year, so she will receive a free television licence. She did not feel patronised; she felt a real difference to her life.
Mr. Winnick:
Is my hon. Friend aware that I have received not a single complaint about pensioners feeling patronised about the television licence or winter heating payments? The opposite is the case. Time and again, pensioners asked why Conservative Governments refused to help, and they feel no more patronised about television licences and winter fuel than they do about bus passes. Indeed, they would be deeply offended if the bus pass were taken away.
Kali Mountford:
My hon. Friend is right. Nor do pensioners feel patronised when they make claims for housing or council tax benefit. We must tackle the stigmatisation of particular benefits, and not just for pensioners. Across the board, people feel stigmatised if they think that benefits are not theirs of right. The Government must tell people that they have worked all their lives--in the home, as carers for elderly parents or someone who was disabled, on low pay, as part-time earners or as a disabled person who was unable to work--and that we all value them. We must tell them that extra income will go into their pockets not as a stigmatised, means-tested benefit but because it is theirs of right. The minimum income guarantee is theirs of right, and we should launch a take-up campaign beyond anything ever done before.
Mr. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North):
I am sorry to say that I cannot follow all my hon. Friend's arguments very well. Does she agree that even if pensioners claimed all their means-tested income support and did not feel that there was a stigma, that would not alter the fact that means testing is not right? We want a higher, non-means-tested state pension.
Kali Mountford:
I do not hold the same view as my hon. Friend. In all my time dealing with benefits, it troubled me that people stigmatised that sort of benefit. By doing so, we make it difficult to get benefits to people even when it is their right to have them. We should make it clear that people have a right to the benefits that the country has decided belong to them. As long as we talk in the way my hon. Friend does, we shall demean what we seek to do as a state and a Government.
It is right to put money in people's pockets. I am very disturbed by some of what I have heard today. I do not think it right to demean people. We should put money into the pockets of those who need it, and that is what we are doing.
Mrs. Lait:
I shall not speak for long because I do not want to intrude on family grief. I have been interested to see that we face two parties--one below the Gangway and one above it, although even that distinction is beginning to splinter. I hope that the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Kali Mountford) will not think me patronising if I say that she made a brave speech. That was a difficult thing to do in face of the emotional appeals made on behalf of elderly pensioners.
I hope that the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) will accept congratulations from everyone in the Opposition on his birthday--[Hon. Members: "Everyone?"] I am sure that everyone would wish a happy birthday to such a pillar of the House of Commons. The right hon. Gentleman, as so often, put his finger on a good point. He mentioned the compact between the generations on which the whole national insurance system is built. The compact implies that those who pay should be prepared to do so. One reason for the break in 1980 between earnings and prices was a fear felt by the Conservative Government that the pay-as-you-go system would put an intolerable weight on the current generation. It was feared that the compact that produced national insurance benefits would be broken in the long run. We need only consider the structure of the population to realise that generations behind us--it will not be long before I can claim my pension, although I am not planning to retire--will ask whether it can afford me. That is the real problem.
Mr. Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley):
Cheap.
Mrs. Lait:
They probably do feel that they cannot afford me, because I am not cheap. However, I would just point out that I am just one of very many people.
Dr. Lynne Jones:
Surely the existence of a basic state pension to which everyone contributes reinforces solidarity between the generations rather than the reverse. People have to make provision, whether by pay-as-you-go into a state system or by paying into a private system.
Mrs. Lait:
The hon. Lady has rather missed the point, which is that if there is no money left in someone's pocket to pay for private provision, they will resent paying too much for the older generation. That is the point that needs to be addressed.
Mr. Tony Benn:
Pensioners have been productive during their lives. If the hon. Lady really wants an example of a completely non-productive unit, she should visit a hospital where babies are delivered. Not a single baby has ever produced a profit for anybody. A visit to such a hospital exposes the outrageousness of the argument that we cannot afford to look after old people. I visited the hospital in Chesterfield; I was shown round by an accountant. When we came to the premature baby unit, she said, "This is the most expensive part of the business." If premature babies are uneconomic units, why should we pay for them? The hon. Lady has misunderstood the whole purpose of the welfare state.
Mrs. Lait:
I think the point is that the premature baby who, luckily, because of the national health service, can survive, is the future payer of our pensions. That is the crucial thing, and that is why we need to ensure that all those pensioners who can are able to pick up all the benefits that are available. That is why the Conservative Government ran campaigns to encourage people to take up all the benefits; and we wish the Government well with their campaign on the minimum income guarantee.
I hope that the Government can crack the stigma and turn the issue into a matter of rights. As the hon. Member for Colne Valley said--and I am sure that my hon. Friends do not disagree--it is people's right; they have paid in, and they should accept their benefits without feeling any stigma. I sincerely hope that the Government's campaign works.
8 pm
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