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Mr. Shepherd: The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) uttered a great truth: this is, indeed, about the balance of power. That is why it is a particularly important occasion for the Commons itself. The Bill tries to draw a line between the responsibilities and rights of Government but, ultimately, these decisions are ours.
The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher) reprised some elements of a powerful debate that took place in the Standing Committee. There is a reason to commend it. Having read the Bill, the man or woman in the street would come away bewildered and in a state of incomprehension. It is not easy to read. People cannot read it casually and understand what information they can get hold of, what they may not get hold of, what their rights are or what routes are open to them. New Clause 6 adds greatly to the confusion.
I experienced a brief moment of ecstatic delight when I saw the Home Secretary come into the Chamber to speak to the Minister. I wondered whether he was inquiring about the meaning of some of the clauses. I do not say that glibly.
The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey referred to the balance of power. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central then talked about the climate in the United States and the view of citizens there about their relationship to Government. It made me reflect, but, in truth, in Aldridge-Brownhills the citizens' view of Government is not very different from that in America. It just so happens that the House of Commons is the last repository of deference in this country.
The Bill would not stand serious examination for more than two minutes by those who believe in freedom of information. It has great swathes of exclusions and all the rest of it, which make it very difficult to understand the Bill's purpose--hence, we wanted a purposes clause, clear and undiluted--or to find one's way through it. The grouping of amendments under the title "Procedural matters relating to requests for information" gives an intimation of how difficult it is to pursue a consistent theme.
The Government are rightly amending clauses 1, 9 and 15 and, through Government amendments Nos. 89 and 90, schedule 6. Changes are being made throughout the Bill
and a swathe of amendments has been tabled to deal with access to information, although I do not disagree that some of them are more or less useful. New clause 3 would create a binding duty on public authorities to assist people in exercising their rights. That is all. What is the big deal about that? In view of how extraordinarily difficult it is to understand the Bill, why would anyone oppose such a noble measure? It would assist the Government in the change of culture that they claim to seek.
In truth, I do not know why I bother to talk to Ministers as if they had any role to play. Somehow, the Bill has been removed from them and from the House of Commons to suit the demands of an unstated body, whether that be bureaucracy or Whitehall in general. As has been said in previous discussions, we have undertaken an extraordinary journey during our consideration, which started with sunshine and light and no one dissenting. A White Paper was proposed, we had a debate in Parliament and everyone congratulated the right hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) and commended the Public Administration Committee for the worthy and deliberative report that was produced under the chairmanship of the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan)--that splendid Member of the House who is now the leader in Wales, God bless him--but here we are, in reduced circumstances.
So many compliments were heaped on the Government that they were embarrassed, but somehow, after a consultative process in which no one seemed to raise any substantial objections to the outline of the White Paper, we have ended up with this miserable little Bill. As well as being miserable, it is almost unintelligible to the people to whom it is meant to mean something.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Lord):
Order. I hesitate to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but his remarks are rather general. He would do well to be a bit more specific with regard to the amendment.
Mr. Shepherd:
Gladly, Sir, and I accept that rebuke.
I was referring to clauses 1, 9 and 15, schedule 6, Government amendments Nos. 89 and 90 and new clause 3. The need for assistance--a guide through the difficulties of the Bill--is implicit; indeed, it is self-evident. I would have thought that the Minister could have said, "We do not need to delay progress on Report. We gladly accept that our intention was to make such assistance available and we shall provide all the help we can to the citizens of the United Kingdom with what we think of as a flagship Bill." However, we have a mouse of a Bill before us. I recommend that the Minister read new clause 3, overthrow the view expressed in Committee by my good friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department and accept our proposal.
Mr. Lock:
I thank the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd). How could I resist such an invitation?
The issue is not and never has been whether public authorities should
There are a number of simple and, I am afraid, technical reasons why the drafting of new clause 3 leads to one of two conclusions: either it is so vague that it would not achieve the laudable aim that we all share, or its vagueness would result in a duty being imposed that may be appropriate for some public authorities but disproportionate for others. What does "all reasonable steps" mean for a primary school that has to respond to a parent's request for information? The duty on that public authority, or on a single-handed general practice, would clearly be different from that on a Department dealing with a complex request. A code of practice issued by the Information Commissioner under clause 46 would set out, cope with and reflect the assistance and the degree of flexibility required better than would a statutory duty.
I heard what my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central had to say. I have some sympathy for the way in which he put his case and I shall certainly reflect on it. I shall also ensure that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and I consider whether the duty to co-operate and to promote the underlying purpose is sufficiently reflected in the current drafting, whether the right way forward might be to strengthen the code of practice and whether there might be a way to introduce the issues that he raised, although not in that form due to the inflexibility that I mentioned.
Dr. Tony Wright:
When my hon. Friend reflects on those matters, will he also reflect on why it is possible for many other, if not most, freedom of information systems around the world to include some kind of duty to assist? Usually, a commitment to reasonable assistance is expressed. If everyone else can do that, why cannot we?
Mr. Lock:
We must operate within our own legal system, which is a common law system.
One purpose of the amendments, inasmuch as they point to specific occasions on which there is a need to respond--for example, when inadequate information is given--is to ensure that the way in which a public authority responds to a particular situation is defined and is adequate to provide assistance.
Mr. Fisher:
Can my hon. Friend not see the irony in the fact that we are discussing the new clause because we found the code of practice introduced by the previous Government insufficient to address the problem, although it was well intentioned and had many laudable elements?
Mr. Lock:
My hon. Friend sums up the defects of the previous code of practice. What lies between us is not the end, but purely the means. Clause 44 already contains the requirement to include in the code of practice guidance on assisting applicants. We must consider whether that is the right place to direct a public authority to assist applicants, or whether that requirement should be taken from the code of practice and included in the Bill.
I have explained why a general duty in the Bill would not go any further than the code of practice and would cause problems for all types of public authority, whereas the code of practice itself is a more appropriate mechanism: it offers greater flexibility and can reflect the different types of public authority to which the Bill applies--a much wider category than that in the code.
My hon. Friend suggested that there was a defect in the system in that, to date, few people knew of their rights to apply under the code; we should thus do more to ensure that freedom of information was publicised; and that should be a duty on the commissioner. However, I point out that it is already a duty on the commissioner under clause 46(2).
take all reasonable steps to assist
people who want to exercise their rights under the Bill. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and I have said repeatedly that the Bill is being passed to
create a culture of openness, to give people a right to know and in order that it shall be used, not to set up barriers to prevent its use. We are not going through the motions without establishing a proper system for allowing freedom of information.
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