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Fiona Mactaggart: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have not been conspicuously absent. I was absent while the previous group of amendments was discussed because I had no interest in it, but I have participated in the rest of the debate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Whether Members attend debates is not a matter for the Chair.
Mr. Hawkins: It struck me that the Home Secretary was indulging in convoluted rhetoric in an attempt to satisfy his hon. Friends. I was reminded of the sophistry that gave us angels dancing on the head of a pin.
The Secretary of State referred to victims of Executive override and Ministers who might get P45s by return of post. It struck me as particularly significant that he was responding to the right hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark), whose work on this legislation was so sadly ignored by the Government when they introduced the Bill, and who was himself a victim of Executive override.
The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) wanted a specific answer about Government amendment No. 46, which he said did not fit with the rest of the group. I want to ask the Home Secretary about a different amendment, No. 74, which seeks to delete clause 77 on copyright, designs and patents. Unless I missed the mention of it during his lengthy remarks, I do not think that he referred to it at all. I am puzzled about why that clause should suddenly be deleted, and I hope that the Home Secretary will deal with that.
Clearly the Home Secretary has failed to convince the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) and many of his other hon. Friends, and the minor change that he has introduced tonight is obviously extremely unsatisfactory.
Mr. Straw:
With permission, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall reply briefly to the points that have been raised.
The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) asked me about amendment No. 46, which removes from the scope of clause 13 information that is exempt by virtue of clause 11. The exemption in clause 11 applies where the cost of complying with a request under clause 1 would exceed an appropriate limit, which we are minded to set at £500. The cost of complying with a request is the cost of locating information, plus disbursements, but authorities may charge only up to 10 per cent. of those marginal costs. I can continue that explanation if the hon. Gentleman wants me to do so.
The hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Mr. Hawkins) asked about amendment No. 74, which removes clause 77 on copyright. Section 50 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 provides that where the doing of a particular act is specifically authorised by an Act of Parliament, the doing of that act does not infringe copyright. Clause 77 was necessary because section 50 would clearly not have applied to disclosures under clause 13, as such disclosures would have arisen out of a discretion rather than a statutory duty. However, as a result of the changes to clause 13, which alter the discretion to a duty, disclosures under that clause will now be made under a statutory authority, so clause 77 is no longer needed.
Mr. David Heath:
I return the Home Secretary to Government amendment No. 46. I have not yet heard why information under clause 11 should be exempt from the public interest test. Why is he saying that cost is the only relevant test?
Mr. Straw:
There is a perfectly sensible arrangement, which is accepted by the House, that there is no duty on the public authority to provide information that can be provided only at a genuinely disproportionate cost. Most information is plainly available and the question of cost does not arise. Amendment No. 46 will ensure that the other provisions relating to disproportionate cost also apply to clause 13. That is the top and bottom of it.
Mr. Straw:
I shall give way once more to the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Heath:
I am grateful to the Home Secretary; we are after all considering a serious amendment on Report. I agree with him about disproportionate cost, but surely the exemption should be contingent on the public interest not outweighing that cost. There may be circumstances in which what would normally be a disproportionate cost would be outweighed by the public interest. Why cannot the two considerations be weighed in the balance?
Mr. Straw:
We did not think that there would be such circumstances. It will be open to the commissioner. If she encounters a series of situations in which she genuinely believes that the arrangement is wrong, she may make representations for change. However, if it is accepted by the House, as I think it is, that there must be some limit to the cost of complying with an information request--bearing it in mind that there is also a limit that will be
I will look at what my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) says, but I do not wish him to hold out too much hope that we will be able to achieve that. I do not profess to as much familiarity with the arrangements in New Zealand as some of my hon. Friends. I profess to considerable familiarity with arrangements here.
I honestly say that what I have said today will certainly ensure, as a matter of law, that certificates are formally made by a Cabinet Minister. The law will require that to be the case. Then, with the exception of matters that are within the quasi-judicial category, where an individual Minister must make that decision, the other decisions are made collectively. Typically, they have been made by Cabinet committee, not by Cabinet. This country is about 15 times the size of New Zealand. Government is, therefore, significantly more complex. Decisions must be made at that level, but it will be a collective decision.
As I have said, I hope that what I have said has the approbation of the House. It is not directly germane to it, but I hope that, in the light of the detailed explanations that I sought to provide to my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright), he will consider withdrawing amendment No. 1.
Dr. Tony Wright:
I can immediately put my colleagues out of any discomfort by saying that we never intended to divide the House on that part of the Bill. Indeed, we came here largely to celebrate the changes that the Government have made to clause 13.
We were not prepared for the extraordinary parliamentary spectacle that we have just enjoyed. I think that the hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Mr. Hawkins) struck the wrong tone. We have experienced not, to use his phrase, convoluted rhetoric, but Parliament doing its job and a Minister responding to Parliament doing its job. It is all too infrequent that a Minister responds to concerted and, I hope, intelligent pressure.
It has been interesting to watch, as it were, the oral redrafting. We have enjoyed it. To be frank, I am not sure whether, on reflection, we shall think that enough has been said yet. I am not sure yet that those of us who dislike the idea of the veto are persuaded that a veto of any type is acceptable. Some of us might be persuaded if we could toughen the hurdle: raise it sufficiently, so that it became a collective Cabinet hurdle, rather than a ministerial hurdle. I am grateful for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State's comment that he will go away and think about that.
While my right hon. Friend is being so generous, I would add one more consideration: when other systems retain an override or a ministerial certificate in such cases, they confine it to areas of what might be called key state interests: for example, defence and international relations. The problem is that the override goes across the board. As we have heard, it takes in local authorities, too.
Mr. Gordon Marsden (Blackpool, South):
My hon. Friend mentions local authorities. Does he agree that that is a crucial element of what we are talking about? If the
Dr. Wright:
Of course I agree with my hon. Friend, but we have some loose ends to attend to. Until tonight, we had none and that counts, in parliamentary terms, as progress. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has guaranteed us a sleepless night. I congratulate him on the progress that we have made so far and look forward to progress resuming tomorrow. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment made: No. 46, in page 7, line 18, leave out from "(2)," to end of line 19.--[Mr. Mike Hall.]
Further consideration adjourned.--[Mr. Mike Hall.]
Bill, as amended in the Standing Committee, to be further considered tomorrow.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Lord):
With permission, I shall put together the motions relating to delegated legislation.
11.45 pm
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