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Mr. McGrady: I am talking about practical politics on the ground. Until the entire community feels confident to embrace, join and be active in that service, it will not be reflected in that service. Peace and stability in Northern Ireland depend entirely on the commitment that is given to the service by both communities.
Mr. Peter Robinson (Belfast, East): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. McGrady: I have said already that I am not giving way. There are only a few minutes left to me.
Mr. Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire): Let us remember that the debate is part of the on-going peace process, wherein the Patten report has always played an important role, as we have just heard. The group Friends of the Good Friday Agreement has arranged a conference for the weekend after next, where once again the Patten report will form a key part of the discussions. Yesterday, a student section of that body was launched by the National Union of Students executive member, Sophie Bolt. Again, some conversation was focused on the Patten report.
We need to remember that many people are watching to see what happens to the police force in Northern Ireland. They are judging the actions that are taken and the promises that are made to create an inclusive police force by the degree to which the Patten report is implemented.
The fundamental police role is to uphold law and order. We have heard a lot about that and, in general, the RUC has performed that role admirably in the most extreme conditions. Thanks to the sacrifices of RUC officers and their families, law and order generally has not broken down in large parts of the Northern Irish community. I believe that the George Cross is a fitting tribute for that sacrifice, and I hope that hon. Members of all parties can agree on that.
However, we cannot get away from the fact that a substantial section of the population has had a more strained relationship with the RUC, despite the committed hard work of the overwhelming majority of officers, regardless of their religious denomination. The reasons for mistrust vary, but some tensions are the direct result of the troubles and of matters that have been set out already. As a result, some communities have turned to paramilitaries to enforce some form of trumped-up justice. In some areas, the paramilitary beatings have almost become part of the process of keeping order, although--most evidently--they are not part of the process of law.
The Patten report offers a way to stop that ethos. The Good Friday agreement stated clearly that the participants in the agreement
The Liberal Democrats broadly welcome the report as a basis for progress. Changes in the police service had to take place, and they had to be by evolution rather than revolution. In that context, I believe that there can be no question of disbandment. We must retain the vast range of talents and expertise in the RUC. We must also recognise--as the right hon. Member for Bracknell (Mr. MacKay) did--that the RUC is a world authority on some aspects of policing, as a result of the difficult circumstances in which it has operated.
Many of the recommendations in the report are not controversial and I am sure that they will be agreed without much dissent. I was especially pleased at the
emphasis that it placed on human rights. That emphasis is key to the well-being of a democratic society, and to the healing process that has to take place in Northern Irish politics, where human rights have not always been respected.
For a police force, limiting a person's human rights limits the degree to which that person can trust the force. For example, arrest, stop-and-search operations and house searches can lead to very bad community relations if they are carried out in an unsympathetic way. It takes only a small amount of distrust to render effective policing virtually impossible. A police force can barely operate without community support but, unfortunately, that is what has happened in some parts of Northern Ireland.
We therefore especially welcome the inclusion of a commitment to uphold human rights in the police service oath. In themselves, those words will not solve the problem, but they make a lot of sense in terms of the direction in which we must go. The Patten report suggests that the RUC can enhance its human rights practice further. We certainly welcome the report's recommendations, and hope that they will be implemented.
The Liberal Democrat submission emphasised the need for the police to work with the local community. Successful forces tend to be accessible to ordinary people. Given the security situation in Northern Ireland, that has not always been easy there, but a speedy implementation of the Patten report's proposals should help.
Even so, a start can be made now on building and developing trust. As always, there has been much discussion today about culture, ethos and--most important--symbols. All hon. Members, regardless of party, must recognise the sensitivities involved. I recently visited the Province with my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Inverness, West (Mr. Kennedy). Our conversation with police representatives underlined the real worries that the proposed changes have caused. There is a real feeling that they are disrespectful to the many people who have suffered loss or injury during the many years that the RUC has been in the front line. These feelings must be taken seriously. The right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) spoke with great authority and insight.
On balance, this is a matter not of principle but of judgment about how to balance the need for reform with the need to respect those sensitivities. Given that the police are there to serve not one or even two sections of the community but all the citizens of Northern Ireland, it is necessary to put that sense of ownership very high on the agenda for reform. Patten believes that the name is a real sticking point and that the historic symbolism, cherished by so many, also causes a proportion of nationalists and republicans to regard the RUC as someone else's police force or one connected with factions rather than individuals. It is a hard call. In my view, the changes must take account of the memory of those who have sacrificed so much, but it would be a far bigger tragedy if, after all that sacrifice, the RUC continued to be seen as a partisan force on account of its name.
This is not the time to discuss what the new name should be. As I have said in the past, I have concerns about the proposal: I still think that the name "Northern Ireland Police Department" would be better. However, it sounds as though we will have an extensive debate when
the legislation comes before the House, and I hope that we can then fully air the concerns that have been expressed to us.
The Liberal Democrats also welcome other aspects of the report, such as video recording in custody suites, an effective complaints procedure, formalisation of co-operation with the Garda, and new and extensive information technology and telecommunication systems for local police stations. Those proposals can all make a practical difference to the effectiveness of the force.
We are, however, concerned about sections of the report, primarily recommendation 121. In attempting to address the imbalance between the number of Protestants and Catholics in the police, it says:
I met Relatives for Justice this afternoon. The group represents people with grievances about the injury or death of members of their family that they allege are a result of state force activity. Having listened to them, I am sure that there is a case to answer. However we may deal with their claims, these people are genuinely aggrieved that their concerns have not been raised sufficiently in the past. In that context, it is not surprising that there continues to be an imbalance.
We need affirmative action. I think that community leaders such as politicians, Church leaders and teachers could actively promote applications to join the police. There are no quick fixes here, and we must not deceive ourselves by thinking that quotas will solve the problem. The same goes for the recruitment of other unrepresented groups such as women and ethnic minorities.
The point about district councils and boards led to an interesting mini-Northern Ireland Question Time between the Secretary of State and the right hon. Member for Bracknell (Mr. MacKay). However, this did not clarify the situation, and I would be grateful if we could have an unequivocal explanation of what is going to happen. I was reassured that safeguards exist to prevent district councils from being infiltrated by paramilitary involvement, but we have to be careful, because I think the right hon. Member for Bracknell was right to raise the issue.
My final point is about downsizing. The right hon. Member for Upper Bann is right to say that we cannot start downsizing when we do not know where we will end up. If there is downsizing, however, we must ensure that retirement packages and severance payments are very generous. That would not cost the taxpayer a lot, and it would be fair to those who have given so much.
believe that the agreement provides the opportunity for a new beginning to policing in Northern Ireland with a police service capable of attracting and sustaining support from the community as a whole.
That is the crucial point in this debate. We must all acknowledge what has been mentioned already--that the polls show that a large proportion of people in Northern Ireland do not regard the RUC as their police force. The Good Friday agreement was signed up to by almost everyone here today. The words that I quoted outline the challenge that the Patten commission sought to answer.
An equal number of Protestants and Catholics should be drawn from the pool of qualified candidates.
We fully support the need for equalisation, but the imbalance will not be fixed by demanding that an equal number be recruited from the qualified pool of candidates. That would simply tackle the symptoms and not the cause, because quotas ignore the fundamental issue. There are so few Catholics in the RUC, not because Catholics have been rejected by the RUC but because the RUC has lost the confidence of so many Catholics who might otherwise apply. There is little incentive to apply. Added to peer pressure, community pressure and, sometimes, paramilitary pressure, that makes it much more difficult for a Catholic to apply to be in the police.
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