| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Salter: I am not giving way.
It was interesting that the latest opinion polls showed that coarse fishermen and women were as opposed to the barbaric sports of fox and stag hunting as the rest of the
population. All the attempts by Opposition Members and the pro-hunt lobby to pray anglers in aid to defend their views will not work.
Like my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester, I have seen the New Forest draghounds. I was appalled at the intimidation and the bullying that the master of those draghounds experienced at the hands of the fox and stag-hunting fraternity. He was blackballed, outlawed and discriminated against, because he had taken a brave decision that was triggered by the deliberate execution of hounds elsewhere. He showed that there is a viable alternative.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York):
I am delighted to contribute to the debate, but I wish to comment on its timing and the tactics deployed by Labour Members. This week, the House has seen the passage of the Freedom of Information Bill. Will the Minister tell us whether new Labour's and the Government's reaction to so-called freedom of information was that the first motion on a day available for private Members' business proposed that the House should meet in private? I am sure that those who have witnessed the debate will take a dim view of that.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) on securing the place that he did in the ballot. However--if I may use the term--I accuse him of being on a slight ego trip; the Bill's timing is an entirely cynical electioneering ploy. Perhaps I should also congratulate him on that timing.
I have expressed my disappointment that the hon. Gentleman's approach to the Bill is from the very narrow viewpoint of animal welfare. I wish to put on the record my commitment to animal welfare. Those Members who are interested may like to know that my curriculum vitae shows that animal welfare is one of my great interests. I also draw the House's attention to my declaration in the Register of Members' interests, which shows that I own a modest co-share in a farm in the north of England--in Teesdale, County Durham. Regrettably, I do not have the time to engage in country pursuits, but I hope that the farm has given me an understanding of the countryside.
In my previous career, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I was your Member of the European Parliament. On several occasions, I participated actively in the Parliament's all-party animal welfare group, and I represented Brightlingsea at the time when the movement of live animals was attracting a great deal of attention. I do not think that any hon. Member could doubt my concern for animal welfare.
I shall explain why I think that hunting is the least cruel and most humane form of killing a fox. Not only is it the most effective method, but the alternatives are more painful, more cruel and less humane.
I want to consider the role of the hunt and hunting in the countryside. It is clear that foxes are a pest and I regret that the hon. Member for Brent, East lost his pet tortoise to a fox. As hon. Members will be aware, foxes are increasingly leaving the countryside and coming into towns. I am not advocating that the four hunts and several
beagle packs in the Vale of York should move to Westminster to eradicate hares and foxes, but I am sure that it is a source of great concern to the Prime Minister and others with positions of responsibility in Whitehall that several ducks have been killed by foxes that are hiding under the temporary huts erected for the building works. I cannot remember the correct term for those huts.
Miss McIntosh:
Indeed, portakabins, which are made in North Yorkshire, just outside the Vale of York. I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman.
Although I do not suggest that hunts should relocate to Westminster to eradicate pests, hon. Members will be only too aware of the damage that foxes do to all animals, including pet tortoises and rare ducks.
To my knowledge, no hon. Member has considered the duty that the hunt performs, in the absence of large numbers of knackers' yards in rural areas, in disposing of fallen stock. I am sure that hon. Members with rural constituencies will be aware that such disposal is an increasing problem. More than 400,000 carcases have to be disposed of each year, and for the most part--the Vale of York is no exception--they are collected and disposed of by hunts. The Meat and Livestock Commission estimates that, if that activity were undertaken by others, the cost would be £36 million a year.
Mr. Gardiner:
I am interested to hear that the hon. Lady thinks that the hunt performs such a valuable service in collecting carcases. Has she estimated the number of new jobs that might be created in that service once the hunts have disappeared?
Miss McIntosh:
As I was not expecting to have to share that information with the House today, I am not in a position to answer that. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) can do so.
Mr. Gray:
Between 400,000 and 600,000 calf carcases had to be disposed of this winter because of the appalling catastrophe in the dairy and beef industries. Those carcases are worth only a few pennies, and putting in an ear tag costs £5. A recent circular from the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food acknowledged that if the hunts did not remove the carcases, farmers would, regrettably, seek to bury them on their farms, with possibly catastrophic environmental consequences.
Miss McIntosh:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, but that is not quite the point that was raised. [Interruption.] If Labour Members will hear me out, I will make a conservative estimate and say that the number of jobs that would be created by the need to dispose of carcases would not reach 11,000, which is the figure for hunt employment that my hon. Friend quoted earlier.
I make no criticism of the hon. Member for Brent, East for simply having no understanding of the countryside or rural issues. Many Conservative Members admire his contributions, which are not always in keeping with those of his colleagues. I am slightly amused by the position that he is occupying today. I had thought that he might
join the hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Bell) and we could have had a leadership contest for the independents party as represented in the House.
As my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire has joined me in saying, in the normal course of farming, cattle and calves, sheep and lambs, goats, horses, ponies and foals die each year and have to be disposed of. Opposition Members would not want to face an environmental problem were the hunt to disappear. We would argue vigorously in favour of keeping the hunt for that task, which it performs so adequately.
It is a source of great regret to me that the knacker's yard no longer exists. The year in which my husband and I were married, our family pony, a half-Shetland and half-Welsh pony, had reached the staggering age of 36. It was a source of great sadness that the month before we were married, the animal had to be disposed of.
As I mentioned earlier, the Meat and Livestock Commission estimates that, by disposing of fallen stock, the hunt's contribution saves farmers £36 million. The hon. Member for Brent, East has not recognised that and--I stand to be corrected on this--has not proposed a viable alternative to the role of the hunt in disposing of dead stock. Farmers and landowners are worried that the hon. Gentleman may even be accusing them of not being as actively concerned about animal welfare as he is. The loss of his pet tortoise suggests--
Mr. Livingstone:
I thank the hon. Lady for giving way. As I said earlier, I do not believe that the debate is an issue of class or an issue between rural and urban areas. The vast majority of people in every sector of society oppose hunting because they regard it as cruel. As we know, analysis of opinion polls shows that even in the 7 per cent. of Britain that is most rural, a large majority of those living there are oppose to hunting.
Miss McIntosh:
There the hon. Gentleman and I must agree to disagree. I believe that other methods are more cruel and less humane.
I shall move on, as many of my hon. Friends wish to speak. Will the Minister tell us the position of the Government and the Prime Minister on the Bill? The Prime Minister set up the Burns committee, and I understand from a leak released to the media this week that he intends to offer hon. Members a multi-choice questionnaire. It will be interesting to see whether all hon. Members will have the opportunity to express their choice.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |