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Mr. Leigh: The hon. Gentleman has just come in and will not have heard what I said earlier. We do it as a sport but it has a beneficial aspect. It ensures good conservation, and that the fox population is maintained. It ensures that foxes are not generally disposed of in a cruel way.
On those grounds, the Bill should be rejected.
2.8 pm
Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire):
Fox hunting always arouses great passion on both sides of the argument, more than almost any other subject debated in this Chamber. I regret that, and welcome the establishment of the Burns inquiry. I hope that it will get rid of all the passion, emotion and bias, and pay no heed to the class war aspect to which some hon. Members have alluded.
The hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Foster) talked about foxes being disembowelled. That is absurd, and such emotive language does not help a sensible, quiet debate.
Mr. Banks:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Gray:
I shall be happy to give way to one of the more emotional Members of Parliament.
Mr. Banks:
I am emotional, but not tired and emotional, and I agree that this is a very emotive subject. If the Burns inquiry produced a report that states that no jobs will be at risk if fox hunting were banned, would the hon. Gentleman accept that and support a ban? Could anything convince him that it should be banned?
Mr. Gray:
Like the Minister, I would not wish to prejudge the outcome of the Burns inquiry. However, the inquiry will not consider the morality of fox hunting. That is for the House to decide. The important thing about the Burns inquiry is that it will introduce factual information and quiet consideration into the debate. We can then make a decision about what we believe to be moral or immoral.
I declare an interest: I am a member of the Royal Artillery Fox Hounds at Larkhill. I hunt with them regularly, and hope to be out with them tomorrow morning. In my constituency there are four packs of foxhounds--the Beaufort, the Avon Vale, the VWH, while the Tedworth is nearby. There is also a pack of beagles in my constituency. I am also chairman of the horse and pony taxation committee, the non-party body of the House that looks into the taxation effects on the horse industry, and has made a submission to Lord Burns. I am an unpaid consultant--all these interests are unpaid--to the British Horse Industry Confederation, which has made a powerful submission to the Burns inquiry.
We must get rid of the emotion and get back to the facts. Perhaps I could touch on some of the great benefits that fox hunting has given the country. Many Labour Members have poured scorn on the argument that hunting helps control pests. The National Farmers Union and the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food have both acknowledged the strong role that fox hunting plays in the control of pests. The Ministry of Defence, no less, has said with regard to my own hunt, the Royal Artillery, that it believes that hunting with hounds is one of the means by which foxes can be controlled on Salisbury plain.
There is an interesting case study: in the 1980s, fox hunting was banned on one part of Salisbury plain--the impact area--because people were worried about riders and hounds blowing themselves up on the unexploded bombs. Within a couple of years, farmers got together and petitioned the Ministry of Defence to overturn that ban because the depredations on lambs, chickens and calves in the surrounding area were so great.
My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of York (Miss McIntosh), among others, alluded to the disposal of animal carcases. There is no way in which the knackerman could replace the services provided by the hunts in the removal of fallen stock. Interventions from one or two Labour Members indicated that they have no idea about the scale of the problem facing farming at the moment, the number of carcases that are becoming available and the fact that the knackering industry could not possibly replace the service provided by hunts.
A recent circular from none other than the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food told farmers that they must not dispose of the carcases on the farm if they can possibly avoid doing so and, the problems understandingthat farmers are having, suggested that they should get in touch with their local hunts and request them to take away the carcases.
Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East):
There is an analogous problem in the New forest. The ponies graze on the forest and the hunt removes the fallen stock. We have no idea how that task would be performed without the hunt.
Mr. Gray:
That is, of course, right. The Licensed Animal Slaughterers and Salvage Association has only 120 knackers' yards in the United Kingdom, whereas something like 200 to 300 boners are operated by the hunts which supply the service. The Meat and Livestock Commission has estimated that without the service that the hunts provide, the agriculture industry would have to pay an additional £36 million a year which, of course, it can ill afford.
There are a number of important environmental points on this issue. The hon. Member for Hampstead and Highgate (Ms Jackson) laughingly said that she could not see why, if hunting was so beneficial to the landscape of rural England, foxes were turning up in her garden. She misunderstood the point. The reason why the landscape of an area such as north Wiltshire has been changed over the centuries by fox hunting is nothing to do with the habitat of foxes. Of course foxes can live anywhere--they could live in a dustbin, come to that. The point is that as the farmers allow the hunt to cross their land, the land is preserved for hunting. It would otherwise be used for all sort of things, such as housing, which she might view with more approval. Her intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) showed the depth of her ignorance about the points that we are making.
Ms Glenda Jackson:
Clearly, the hon. Gentleman has, not for the first time, misunderstood the point made by Labour Members. I was refuting the argument that hunting, of itself, created a beneficial natural environment which promoted the well-being of the fox population. My question was, if that was the case, why were foxes leaving the countryside in increasing numbers?
Mr. Gray:
Once again, the hon. Lady shows that she knows nothing about the matter. The suggestion that foxes are leaving the countryside in increasing numbers is laughable.
Mr. Livingstone
rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
Question put, That the Question be now put:--
The House divided: Ayes 74, Noes 0.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Whereupon Mr. Deputy Speaker declared that the Question was not decided in the affirmative, because it was not supported by the majority prescribed by Standing Order No. 37 (Majority for closure or for proposal of Question).
Mr. Gray:
I was rather embarrassed by the fact that we did not earlier have sufficient people present to prevent the opening of the debate on fox hunting, so I am more than delighted that only 74 Labour Members turned up to vote for the closure motion. That has allowed the debate to continue. Many Opposition Members who feel strongly about these issues have not had an opportunity to speak. I am glad that the debate will continue.
The next time Labour Members say that the Labour party is overwhelmingly opposed to fox hunting, they should remember that, because only 74 of them turned up, this Bill will not, as I very much hoped it would not, go through.
AYES
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Austin, John
Baker, Norman
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Brinton, Mrs Helen
Casale, Roger
Cawsey, Ian
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clwyd, Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Cohen, Harry
Colman, Tony
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Darvill, Keith
Dean, Mrs Janet
Dismore, Andrew
Dobson, Rt Hon Frank
Donohoe, Brian H
Dowd, Jim
Drown, Ms Julia
Efford, Clive
Field, Rt Hon Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Gardiner, Barry
Gerrard, Neil
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Grogan, John
Harris, Dr Evan
Hill, Keith
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, Alan (Newport E)
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Linton, Martin
Livingstone, Ken
McDonnell, John
McIsaac, Shona
Mackinlay, Andrew
McWalter, Tony
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Miller, Andrew
Morley, Elliot
Naysmith, Dr Doug
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Pike, Peter L
Pond, Chris
Pope, Greg
Prosser, Gwyn
Rammell, Bill
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Salter, Martin
Sedgemore, Brian
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Stunell, Andrew
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Touhig, Don
Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Winnick, David
Wood, Mike
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Mr. Ian Stewart and
Mr. David Taylor.
NOES
Mr. James Gray and
Mr. David Maclean.
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