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12.43 am
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Janet Anderson): We have had a useful and wide-ranging debate on what is necessarily a narrowly focused Bill. Its purpose is clear: to assist in the provision of free television licences for people aged 75 or over. I was pleased to note support for the concession, although I know that some Members would like it to be more widely available. My right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) made that point.
It is clear from the responses that we have received since the announcement of our proposal that the concession is much welcomed by older pensioners, but that many are concerned about what they must do to obtain their free licence, and are anxious not to miss out. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have received many letters from Members who are eager to
know the details. The Government are especially keen to ensure that the administration of free licences for the over-75s does not impose unnecessary burdens, and thus undo much of the good of the concession. Our aim is as far as possible to enable elderly people to claim it from the comfort of their armchairs.I was pleased to hear the hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr. Ainsworth) welcome the concession, because I believe that, in the past, he has described it as a hollow gimmick. I am glad that he no longer takes that view.
There must be a proper understanding of how the arrangement will operate, and we are working closely with TV Licensing and the Department of Social Security to ensure that people have the information that they need.
I telephoned TV Licensing this morning. Any hon. Member who does so will find that, in the recorded choices, there is clear instruction on which number to press for information about the free television licence. This week, I received my new licence in the post from TV Licensing. It says clearly that pensioners over 75 will be entitled to a free licence from 1 November.
Mr. Fabricant: I am curious. The Minister telephoned TV Licensing and got the recorded messages. Did she eventually manage to speak to a real human being?
Janet Anderson: I did and she was very courteous. She dealt with my point very competently.
Mr. Jim Dowd (Lord Commissioner to the Treasury): It was his mother.
Janet Anderson: I do not know whether it was the hon. Gentleman's mother.
Many hon. Members have asked what will be the position of pensioners over 75 who do not hold free television licences when they should. I am sure that TV Licensing will be sensitive to that matter. As my hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens, South (Mr. Bermingham) said, the Government are not in the business of sending 80-year-olds to prison because they were perhaps confused about the rules, but it is our job and that of TV Licensing to ensure that as much information is available as widely as possible.
The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh), who is no longer in the Chamber, also referred to the scheme as a gimmick. He raised the question of whether it would mean the Government interfering with the independence of the BBC. It is wrong even to suggest that. I was pleased to hear the hon. Member for Lewes (Mr. Baker) on the other Opposition Bench confirm that he believed that to be the case, as did my right hon. Friend the Member for Gorton.
One of the reasons for doing it in that way is that it is very simple. We want pensioners to be able easily to avail themselves of the free licence from their armchair, but it is important to retain the licence principle. There is no question of the Government, through the process, taking a stake in the BBC. As my hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens, South said, the Government are making good a revenue loss. I clarify the position. As the Secretary of State and I have said on numerous occasions, we believe that the licence fee is the best possible way in which to fund the BBC for the foreseeable future.
The hon. Member for East Surrey asked why the over-75s must apply to opt in. As I say, that is because it preserves the long-standing tradition that everyone who has a television must have a licence and that the fee goes to fund the BBC. The introduction of the concession does not provide sufficient cause to question that basic principle.
The hon. Gentleman referred to the Secretary of State's part in the matter. I refer him to subsections (3) and (4) of the Bill, which refers to the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, who will make orders describing the sort of information that may be supplied to the BBC. I repeat for the benefit of the House: it is intended to define only a very narrow range of information: the age, address, date of birth and the national insurance number of persons aged 74 or over.
It is intended that an order under the Bill should enable the Department of Social Security and Northern Ireland Department to disclose to the BBC the fact that such a person has died. That is important. Under the amendment that was tabled by the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean) and subsequently withdrawn, the information would have to be sought every year and information about when an eligible pensioner had died would not automatically be passed to the BBC, and that could cause great distress to families.
Several hon. Members have asked whether the information to be disclosed can be in the Bill. Although the information that may be disclosed is not in the Bill, I assure the House that it will appear in an order, subject to negative resolution of either House. I hope that that gives hon. Members the reassurance that they seek.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Gorton dealt very competently with the question that was asked about the number of households. Although it is difficult for us to be accurate about the number now, we estimate that it is about 3 million households.
I should also deal now with the issue of costs--as it has been raised by various hon. Members who seemed to be a little confused. We estimate that, in 2000-01, the cost of the concession will be £344 million, with an additional £23.4 million in administration costs in the first year. It is important that those administration costs are kept to a minimum, and I assure the House that we shall be ensuring that there is pressure on TV Licensing and on the Department of Social Security to ensure that that happens.
Mr. Peter Ainsworth: The administration costs in the first year will of course include start-up costs. Could the Minister give a figure on the start-up costs and also a figure on what she expects the administration costs to be in subsequent years?
Janet Anderson: I do not have that information now, but perhaps we can discuss the matter in Committee. I suspect that the matter will become clearer as arrangements for the scheme are implemented.
I thank the hon. Member for Lewes for his welcome for the provision and for his confirmation that he does not believe that it will affect either the BBC's independence or the BBC's income. On his point on administration costs, we understand that hon. Members are rightly concerned about those costs. Everything that needs to be done will be done to keep down those costs.
The hon. Member for Lewes also asked whether claims of arrears would be considered when pensioners had been entitled to the concession but had not known about it. Claims of arrears in such a concession pose various difficulties, especially as they would involve cash refunds. In particular, as I am sure that he will appreciate, retrospective proof of entitlement covering several years will not be straightforward. However, we are willing to consider that issue further in introducing the concession.
Mr. Baker: The Minister's comments underline the need to ensure that the information provided now is as full as possible, so that the situation does not arise. May I also tell her that I renewed my television licence earlier today--in time for this debate--and that there was no mention anywhere on it of the forthcoming change allowing those over 75 to qualify for a free licence? Why is the information not on the television licence itself?
Janet Anderson: I received my television licence, and there were some details--although I cannot remember the exact words--of the concession on it. Nevertheless, I reassure the hon. Gentleman that TV Licensing will be writing to everyone with full details of the concession, including details on the provision of part licences, to ensure that as much information as possible is available as widely as possible.
Hon. Members also asked questions about the reason for the delay in introducing the legislation and in implementing the concession until 1 November. I am sure that hon. Members will agree that it is important that we get this right and ensure that all those who are entitled to the concession receive it. We therefore have to provide time for the BBC and TV Licensing to prepare for that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron) raised an issue that I know concerns various hon. Members who have had similar experiences in their own constituencies. The issue is also often raised with us in correspondence. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said earlier in the debate, we have removed one small anomaly in situations in which entitlement to the concession is based on housing provision--namely, in the sheltered housing scheme. Previously, strictly speaking, men over 60 in such a development would have threatened the concession for everyone in that development. We have now said that, in future, the qualifying age for both men and women in such housing will be 60. The change was introduced with the order that increased the television licence fee.
In our response to Davies, and in considering what to do, we have made it plain that, although we accept that the concessionary licence scheme is unfair and unsatisfactory, we believe that to try to tinker around with it would produce only more anomalies. We believe that, by introducing the provision to give free licences to all over-75s, we have started to strip unfairness out of the scheme. We shall look into the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley raised.
From 1 May to 1 November, when the scheme comes in, is a period of six months. Those who will be eligible on 1 November need purchase only a six-month licence.
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