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Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East): Is my hon. Friend aware of the case of Patricia White Bull in America, who came out of a coma after a substantial number of years? It is not true that people do not come out of comas after a long period.
Mr. Ashton: I hear what my hon. Friend says. There will always be arguments on the issue, but there comes a
time when politicians should listen to medical experts. We accept their rulings on industrial tribunals or disability benefits. We have no option.
Mr. McNamara: Not on disability benefits.
Mr. Ashton: We do not overrule doctors, whatever they say. That is a principle of law. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, South-East (Dr. Iddon) cited one case. I am quoting not my own opinion but that of professors who specialise in comas.
Mr. Michael Jabez Foster: It is an incredible proposition that we have no right to question a doctor who is playing God. If what my hon. Friend says is right, do we have to accept the decision of a junior doctor last week that a woman with only a year to live from cancer should not be resuscitated, even if that were appropriate?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Before the hon. Gentleman responds, I remind him, as I have just reminded the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh), that he must relate his remarks to the new clause.
Mr. Ashton: My point is about publicity. I was referring to new clause 17, which says that
- No person shall publish any material which is intended or likely to identify--
(a) any patient
Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon): In the light of the intervention from the hon. Member for Bolton, South-East (Dr. Iddon), I should like to give the same advice that I gave on Second Reading. A persistent vegetative state is different from a coma. The Bill would cover the withdrawal of treatment from people in a coma, but the Bland case was one of persistent vegetative state. We should be wary about accepting anecdotal evidence about either medical state, rather than concentrating on the general case.
Mr. Ashton: The hon. Gentleman is right.
The aim of the Bill is to put fear into doctors and deter them from even thinking about switching off life-support machines. They would have to think of the consequences and all the hassle. My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon referred to the case of Dr. David Moor, a good friend of mine who is sitting in the Strangers Gallery today.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must not refer to people in the Strangers Gallery.
Mr. Ashton: I know from personal experience the publicity that surrounded Dr. David Moor. He had
tremendous support in his constituency. He had to retire from his practice. I went to a public meeting in Newcastle where 400 people turned up in support of him. He could not be there, because it looked as though he faced a prosecution. He openly admitted what he had done and there was enormous publicity that put him under a great deal of stress, which he survived well. He was obviously found not guilty. The court had to be moved from Newcastle to Leeds.Those who support the Bill intend that the fear of publicity will deter doctors from deciding to switch off a life-support machine quietly, with the agreement of all interested parties, including the family. They would not able to do that because somebody--perhaps their local Member of Parliament--would say that they were breaking the law. They would become martyrs and would have to go to court and be charged with murder.
Mr. Trend: The hon. Gentleman says that the Bill would make doctors fearful of the consequences or the publicity. I take a different view. The Bill would remove from elderly or sick people and their parents, friends and relations the fear that their doctor might end their life by refusing to give them food and drink. That is the specific aim of the Bill. We all agree that the Bland case was very difficult and I have enormous admiration for the Bland family. However difficult that case was, the judgment in that case has given rise to other difficulties, including a greater suspicion, particularly among elderly patients, that their doctors cannot be trusted and might kill them if they judge that their life is not worth living. That new fear must be dealt with.
Mr. Ashton: I could equally argue that the Doctor Assisted Dying Bill, which I introduced a few years ago, would have been welcomed by many elderly patients, because it would have allowed those diagnosed with a terminal illness to tell the specialist or consultant that they wanted the right to an assisted suicide. There are two sides to the argument. I am not trying to stop people practising their religion, but they cannot put their religion onto me. I am entitled to my beliefs, just as they are entitled to theirs. We are arguing not about beliefs, but about the human rights of individuals. I do not want to start talking about living wills or doctor assisted dying, because they are separate issues.
Without the new clause to protect relatives from publicity, the Bill could mean a repeat of the Tony Bland case, when the parents asked for the machine to be switched off after three or four years and the doctor said that he could not switch it off because that would be murder. Imagine the mass marches and demonstrations that there might be through the streets, similar to those in America about abortion, with all the paraphernalia, headlines and arguments about whether it is mercy or murder. Those who support the Bill want such publicity to deter any doctor, particularly a younger doctor or anyone who is thinking of climbing higher in their career, from using their common sense, judgment and decent humanity to say that, although a patient might be alive, they will never come off the machine. Is that humane? I do not think so. If the doctor, the family and everybody in the hospital agree that the patient will not come out of the coma, it is common sense and decency to accede to the family's wishes and switch the machine off.
11 amAre we to return to the problems of the Tony Bland case, which spread over three or four years and caused agony for the family? Three of the other boys involved recovered and came off the life-support machine, although they were severely damaged. However, Tony Bland would never have recovered and, after 15 days or so, he died. We can argue for ever about individual cases and anecdotal evidence, such as that provided by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, South-East (Dr. Iddon). There will always be cases such as that in the newspapers yesterday, when a patient found her hospital notes which suggested that the doctors were trying to bump her off.
There is nothing more fascinating to a large section of the public than health cases, particularly the end of a person's life. The House does not debate that subject enough. At any one time, 300,000 people--equivalent to the population of a city such as Nottingham or Newcastle--are terminally ill. The House cannot keep sweeping this matter under the carpet by setting up a Select Committee in the House of Lords, or by staggering from one individual case to another. Sooner or later, the House must face up to one fact--doctors know best. I do not think that doctors are bad people. We can end up with a Shipman, but that can happen in any profession--
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am reluctant to keep interrupting the hon. Gentleman, but he is not speaking to the new clause. I would be grateful if he did so.
Mr. Ashton: I had virtually finished. I implore the House to accept the proposals, particularly the two new clauses that I have mentioned. The question of who brings prosecutions is important, and it must not be someone who feels like a private prosecution for religious or propaganda purposes. It is important that the Director of Public Prosecutions should have to bring any prosecution if the Bill is passed. Also, the practice should not be turned into a circus or provide entertainment for the general public.
Mr. Neil Gerrard (Walthamstow): The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) tried to argue that the Bill, and clause 1 in particular, is simple and clear. I think that the opposite is the case, and that is why it is necessary to have new clause 11 and some of the other new clauses.
If the Bill in its present form becomes law, there will be a lack of clarity. The intervention by the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris) illustrated the problem of definition, which is not simple. The meaning of "purpose" may be simple in common-sense terms, but the legal interpretation is not so simple. The word has been interpreted in different ways in the courts. One interpretation is the intent to commit a particular act and does not involve the state of mind. These problems mean that we need the safeguards in terms of prosecution proposed by new clause 11.
A radical change in the law is proposed, yet we hear that there is nothing in the Bill that need worry doctors. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) has pointed out, doctors are worried. The British Medical Association has made it clear that it is worried about the consequences of prosecutions under the Bill in its present form. The Royal College of Nursing has done the same. Much of the debate has concentrated on doctors,
but the Bill opens up the possibility also of the prosecution of anyone involved in the care of a patient, and concerns any person responsible for the care of a patient. That brings in nurses, paramedics and care workers. Organisations such as Age Concern and the Alzheimer's Society are worried about what prosecutions under the Bill might lead to. That is why we need the protection proposed by new clause 11. The decision on prosecution would have to be made at a senior level by the Attorney-General, and not as a result of private prosecution.
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