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Mr. David Prior (North Norfolk): If the Secretary of State were considering buying a post office and he was told that the Government were keeping open the option of providing financial assistance at some unspecified date in the future, would that give him the confidence that he would need before going ahead?
Mr. Byers: Yes, it would. For the first time, we will have in statute the power for the Secretary of State to make such payments. At the moment, the Post Office has a degree of social responsibility and is prepared to make a subsidy available to the post office network. It has done so in the recent past. We are giving the Post Office a new commercial freedom. Within that context, it may feel that it does not have the responsibility to meet social obligations, and that it would rather the Government, or some other agency, had that power or responsibility.
New clause 1 supports the clear distinction that is being made between the commercial role of the Post Office in future and the social and wider role that the post office network can play. That raises the important issue of who should fund the post office network to meet those social obligations, or any new services that the Government may feel the network is suited to provide. Our vision for the post office network in the future is that it begins to broaden its role, responsibilities and functions. I know that postmasters and mistresses are keen to develop a new role for the post office network, and perhaps a subsidy could be the appropriate way of supporting such a role in the future.
Mr. David Chidgey (Eastleigh): Does the Secretary of State recall giving a commitment that it was the Government's intention to continue to maintain a national network of sub-post offices? Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that many post offices--particularly in my constituency--depend on the service we are discussing, and that 30 to 40 per cent. of their work is wrapped up in it? Does he envisage a subsidy of that level to maintain the network?
Mr. Byers: We will want to discuss with the various interested parties the nature of any scheme that might be introduced. I know that there is concern about the implications of ACT. That is why we have said clearly that pensioners and benefit recipients who now get cash over the counter at post offices will continue to have that choice--not just until 2003, or between then and 2005, but thereafter.
It is for postmasters and mistresses to say to people that they must make it clear that they want to continue to have their benefit or pension paid in cash at the post office, and that that choice will remain. Many are doing that. There is real potential for people to maintain a high level of income and support for the post office network and the way in which benefits are paid.
Mr. Bercow: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way, because he is a trifle opaque in his presentation of the argument. Who is the mysterious person referred to in new clause 1(2)? Will the Secretary of State confirm, notwithstanding what he said in the Opposition day debate last week, that the clause is purely permissive, not prescriptive, and offers no guarantee to beleaguered post offices in Stewkley, Marsh Gibbon and elsewhere in my constituency? Will he therefore tell the House now whether any regulations flowing from the new clause will be subject to the negative or the affirmative procedure?
Mr. Byers: The hon. Gentleman is being slightly opaque in raising some of those issues. My understanding is that the regulations will be dealt with under the affirmative procedure, and I hope that I will be able to confirm that point in due course. We will be able to have a useful debate and constructive dialogue about the important issues concerned. The scheme will be permissive and there will be no obligation to introduce it. However, when the power to introduce such schemes lies on the statute book, I have no doubt that the Secretary of State will be under considerable pressure between now and 2003 to introduce one. It is appropriate that such pressure should be brought to bear, and whoever holds the office will no doubt respond positively to those developments.
Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones (Ynys Mon): Does the Secretary of State understand the concerns of sub-post office owners who are deciding whether to expand and invest or sell up and retire? On the one hand, they have the certainty that in 2003 they will lose a substantial proportion of what they are paid for the service they provide in making pension and Benefits Agency payments. On the other hand, they have the uncertainty about whether a subsidy will be paid. What advice would the Secretary of State give to people in that quandary?
Mr. Byers: For the first time we are providing a power for the Secretary of State to introduce a scheme. We will want to discuss the nature of any such scheme with interested parties, including representatives of sub-postmasters and mistresses. We will debate later whether it would be appropriate to provide that any such scheme should be introduced within a particular period; I do not think that it would. However, I recognise that arguments will be made in favour of establishing a scheme, and after the Bill has received Royal Assent, we will want to work out the details of such a scheme with interested parties.
I should stress that in the interim the Post Office will still have the power to provide support for the network, and that support is given in different ways. For example, Government support is provided to ensure that the Horizon system is put in place.
Mr. Tony Baldry (Banbury): The Secretary of State is in danger of undermining the Committee system, because hon. Members will not gaily volunteer to serve assiduously on Committees if Ministers keep the most interesting clauses for Report stage.
The right hon. Gentleman keeps referring to discussions with interested parties, but those discussions will be pointless unless people have some idea of what sums might be allocated to the schemes. The new clause specifically states that
- The power to make a scheme . . . shall not be exercised without the consent of the Treasury.
Mr. Byers: The hon. Gentleman shows that he has been out of ministerial office for several years, because PES lines no longer exist. We now live in the world of DEL and AME--the departmental expenditure limit and annually managed expenditure. The scheme would come under DEL, but all Government expenditure is controlled, in one way or another, by the Treasury. The right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley) certainly knows that. That is the situation in which we exist. When a scheme such as this is being established, it is not unusual to specify in legislation that any expenditure linked with it would be subject to Treasury approval.
Mr. David Drew (Stroud): My right hon. Friend is being very generous in giving way; he appreciates how important this matter is for many hon. Members. I do not want to press him on the detail, as I know that the scheme needs proper negotiation and consultation, but it is clear that there will have to be a test of the viability of bringing sub-post offices into the scheme. I am especially interested in those offices where sub-postmasters and mistresses receive a salary because of the difficulties involved in a pro rata return. What advantage or disadvantage will the new scheme bring for those people?
Mr. Byers: My hon. Friend has been a strong campaigner for the post office network, both in his constituency and more widely. The services offered by a post office and its role in its community will be among the key factors that we will want to take into account when considering whether a subsidy is appropriate. Such matters would need to be considered in the context of any scheme that is brought forward.
For the benefit of the House, and in response to the earlier question from the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow), I can confirm that orders under new clause 1 will be made under the affirmative procedure. We will therefore be able to engage in the debate to which the hon. Gentleman so looks forward.
Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome): I welcome the fact that the Secretary of State is moving in the right direction, as he has recognised that a problem exists. He has said that he can give no time scale for the subsidy, and that he cannot say what amount of money will be involved, but can he offer a time scale for the talks leading to a subsidy? The Government must engage with sub-postmasters and mistresses, and with the Post Office,
to see what can be done--either by the Post Office or through Government subsidy in due course--to resolve the problems that those people face here and now.
Mr. Byers: I take the hon. Gentleman's point. This is an important moment in the development of the post office network. I do not want a long period to elapse between parliamentary approval for this proposal and the finalisation of the details of the scheme.
I would be slightly reluctant to start work on those details before the Bill receives Royal Assent, as difficulties might arise in another place if it were thought that the Government were acting before proper parliamentary approval had been given to setting up the scheme. However, I think that there will be informal opportunities to discuss the form and nature of the scheme, and we could begin that process very soon. If the Bill were to receive Royal Assent by the summer recess, that might be the time to engage formally with the National Federation of Sub-Postmasters about the details of the scheme.
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