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Mr. Brian Cotter (Weston-super-Mare): I thank the Secretary of State for giving way so frequently. We welcome the proposed subsidy, although the opacity of the proposal has aroused much concern. On Second Reading, the right hon. Gentleman said that it was likely that the Cabinet Office's performance and innovation unit would produce a report while the Bill was being considered. That report would have helped enormously this afternoon. When will it be available?
Mr. Byers: My understanding is that the unit is still considering some details in the report. It hopes to report to the Prime Minister soon after Easter, and he will then announce his view of its work. The unit is addressing a number of key issues, and the question of access criteria is the most relevant to the Bill. I would have preferred the House to have the opportunity to look at the unit's findings. That would have been appropriate given that access criteria are provided for in the Bill, and I regret that the report is not available at present.
I think that the report has proved to be a far more comprehensive look at the network than was originally intended. That is welcome, because this is an important moment for the post office network. There is a chance to consider a new way for it to develop. The performance and innovation unit report will provide us with the opportunity of looking in some detail at how the network will look, not simply in six months or six years, but in the foreseeable future in the 21st century.
Mr. Bercow: I am grateful to the Secretary of State, who has been customarily generous in giving way. Does he agree that transparency is of the essence here? Given that the new clause refers to payments being made by the Secretary of State or by a person on his behalf, is there not a legitimate anxiety that, unless the access criteria are abundantly clear and specific, the new clause could be used for partisan purposes to provide much needed finance to struggling post offices in marginal constituencies that concern the right hon. Gentleman rather than going to constituencies on the basis of commercial need?
4.15 pm
Mr. Byers: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman, because he has already raised the issue of who this mysterious person might be. It could be a number of people, or it could be a body. It could be the Secretary of State, officials designated by the Secretary of State or an organisation such as the Countryside Agency--it depends on the nature of the scheme. Whoever it is will have the authority to make payments under the scheme if that is the way in which the scheme is developed. There is a degree of flexibility. I was going to say, "It could be you"--I did not mean you, Madam Speaker--but unless the electorate changes dramatically, I cannot see the hon. Gentleman being Secretary of State for Trade and Industry for a little while yet. However, he is young, and who knows? His chance may come.
Mr. Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton): I was reflecting on the intervention of the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow). In view of the leak to The Mirror on Monday, I assume that he was referring to marginal Conservative constituencies, because of our prospect of winning a considerable number of them at the next election.
Mr. Byers: I think that that is right. When I saw the leaked document, I was not sure whether it was a deliberate ploy by the Conservatives to lull Labour supporters into a false sense of security. However, as my right hon. Friend knows, Labour supporters are never lulled into a false sense of security--a false sense of insecurity, perhaps.
I now turn to the details of new clause 1, which may answer some of right hon. and hon. Members' questions. The new clause allows the Secretary of State to establish a scheme or schemes for making payments for the purpose of
- (a) assisting in the provision of public post offices or public post offices of a particular description, or
(b) assisting in the provision of services to be provided from public post offices or public post offices or a particular description.
Mr. McLoughlin: I am uneasy about subsidies that will, by their very nature, mean rules and regulations whereby some post offices will qualify while others will not. Did the Secretary of State consider the possibility of ensuring that sub-postmasters were paid the national minimum wage, which is not currently the case?
Mr. Byers: That is a separate issue, which relates to people who have a contract of employment. I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman is now a strong supporter of the national minimum wage. He voted against it at every opportunity during its legislative passage through the
House, so I am glad that, like the right hon. Member for Kensington and Chelsea (Mr. Portillo), the shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer, he now recognises its benefits. It is a matter of regret that we do not have the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr. Duncan) with us. I understand that he is in hospital--it is unfortunate that he is not in the Chamber to take part in the debate.
Mr. Bercow: My hon. Friend is listening.
Mr. Byers: If he is listening to our proceedings, he will know that I recognise that he remains a strong opponent of a national minimum wage. However, I am pleased to hear that the hon. Member for West Derbyshire recognises its importance. The answer to his question is that sub-postmasters are not covered by the minimum wage provisions because they are not under a contract of employment.
In addition to the new clause, Government amendment No. 44 makes it clear that the scheme must follow the affirmative procedure, which will allow debate to take place. There are other minor Government amendments, too, that will ensure that the scheme is effective.
I turn briefly to the amendments in the name of the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Cotter). I think that he seeks to introduce a time limit by which the scheme should be introduced. I do not think that it is appropriate to try to restrict us to three months. We need effective and proper dialogue with all interested parties to ensure that any scheme that is introduced is effective and has broad support among those who are likely to be affected by it.
I am aware that the real concern has arisen in relation to the effects of automated credit transfer. That process will not start until January 2003. There will then be a phased approach to ACT on the part of the Benefits Agency, lasting until 2005. If there is to be a scheme, it is important that we have in place one that can meet the requirements in those circumstances. We will seek to address that possible mischief by developing a particular scheme.
Mr. John M. Taylor (Solihull): I am grateful to the Secretary of State, who has indeed been generous in giving way.
Before we leave behind us the question of subsidy for certain post offices and the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for West Derbyshire (Mr. McLoughlin) that there will be a disparity between those who are subsidised and those who are not, let us consider the European dimension. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of us are concerned that the Post Office cannot compete as freely as we would like with, for example, German operators? If he is to introduce subsidies to the British arm of that competitive game, will he have to clear them with Brussels? Will we have a long wait while competition issues are deliberated upon?
Mr. Byers: There are two specific matters, both of which are covered in the Bill. The first is the post office network. I would like to think that most right hon. and hon. Members recognise that the power to have a scheme that can provide a subsidy is appropriate in the circumstances. A separate issue is how we can make the Post Office more competitive in the services that it
operates. I have no doubt that the measures that we are introducing through the Bill will ensure that the Post Office becomes increasingly competitive. That is the only way in which it will survive in an increasingly competitive European postal market. That is the challenge that it will face. I have no doubt that it must become more commercially minded. It must be prepared to recognise that it will need to begin to compete in areas that are presently reserved as part of its monopoly. I have no doubt that the situation will change.When the Postal Services Commission begins to consider these issues, I hope that it will recognise the importance of providing competition that will raise standards so that the public have better service provision. Obviously that needs to be compatible with the universal service obligation, and I am sure that it will be. I am sure that competition will be highly effective.
Mr. Oliver Letwin (West Dorset) rose--
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