| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Byers: I knew that that would have an effect.
Mr. Burns: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way on a different point?
Mr. Byers: If the hon. Gentleman wants to make a different point, I shall give way first to the hon. Member for West Dorset.
Mr. Letwin: I have an entirely different point, too, and have sat patiently in the hope of hearing it answered so that I need not ask the question. Will the Secretary of State explain what the subsidy is intended to achieve? Does he intend it to cover the transition period during which there will be a lack of investment in new technology, is it intended to be a permanent subsidy, or has he not considered which of those objectives he intends to achieve?
Mr. Byers: I had intended to discuss how the subsidy might be used when I addressed the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton. Essentially, it is intended to ensure the continued viability of a sub-post office, and it can take a number of forms. A post office may be commercially viable without subsidy, but we might none the less feel it appropriate to provide financial support because we wanted it to provide an additional service on the Government's behalf. In effect, we would pay that post office for doing that, possibly through a subsidy. A range of different reasons might apply, all of which are covered by the wide-ranging provisions of new clause 1, which will allow the Secretary of State to introduce a scheme that will meet those obligations. That is why new clause 1 distinguishes between support for a post office, which will probably have to do with its commercial viability, and subsidy for a particular service that a post office might provide.
I said that I would give way to the hon. Member for West Chelmsford (Mr. Burns).
Mr. Burns: As a former Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Gentleman may understand more than most how the Treasury works. I note that new clause 1(6) says that no scheme can be
- exercised without the consent of the Treasury.
-
From the right hon. Gentleman's speech, we have learned that the scheme envisaged in the new clause is highly nebulous. No one, not even the right hon. Gentleman himself, knows how much the subsidy will cost the taxpayer. The Secretary of State must know that the Treasury will never give him an open-ended commitment to provide unlimited public funds. The amounts involved in his two-pronged approach to subsidy could be massive. What discussions has he held with the Treasury, and what assurances or restrictions has the Treasury given him, regarding the circumstances in which it will or will not consent to the scheme?
Through amendment No. 71, the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton asks that information about the viability of specific post offices should be given to the commission. That would extend the remit of the commission to providing advice to the Government on the financial viability of public post offices. I ask the House to resist the amendment because I do not feel that that is a correct role for the commission, whose central role is to regulate licensed postal markets and the operators who are licensed, and to give them a primary duty to ensure the universal provision of postal services at a uniform tariff. We should not wish the commission to be diverted from that challenging and important responsibility by having an additional responsibility to provide advice to the Secretary of State on the commercial viability of individual post offices.
I hope that the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare will not press his amendments to new clause 1, and that amendment No. 71 will not be pressed, either. I hope that all Members can support new clause 1. It will provide the Secretary of State with the power to introduce a scheme to provide a subsidy. Sub-postmasters and mistresses throughout the country will respond positively to the way in which the House has listened to their concerns and has noted the 3 million strong petition that was received last week. The House and the Government are prepared to listen and to respond positively; new clause 1 does precisely that. I ask the House to accept it.
4.30 pm
Mr. Richard Page (South-West Hertfordshire): May I tell the House--especially the Secretary of State and the Minister--that I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Mrs. Browning) is not in the Chamber today? Her absence is unavoidable, as she is either collecting her husband from hospital or taking him there. The absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr. Duncan) has also been mentioned; as we speak, he is undergoing the attentions of a surgeon who is removing his appendix. No one regrets his absence at this moment more than me.
As the Secretary of State has pointed out, the new clause would enable payments to be made to assist in the provision of public post offices or of the services that they offer. We welcome the measure. I can give the Secretary of State some comfort, because I shall not recommend that we vote against it--although what my hon. Friends do is up to them. However, I should be disappointed if they voted against the new clause.
I am certain that the new clause will receive a widespread welcome; it addresses issues of long-standing concern to people throughout the United Kingdom--in inner cities as well as in rural areas. We make much of the rural problem, but the difficulties are just as acute in some inner-city areas.
Those worries were generated by the Government's thoughtlessness in introducing the automated credit transfer system before establishing how an income for sub-post offices would be provided. The matter has been the subject of innumerable debates in the House; indeed, last Wednesday, there were debates in both Westminster Hall and in the Chamber.
The House will remember Corporal Jones from "Dad's Army"; he was the one who rushed around, saying "Don't panic, don't panic". If the Secretary of State were a little greyer and wore a little moustache, he would look rather like Corporal Jones. Recently, he too has been rushing around saying, "Don't panic"--whether over the money for Rover, when that matter went sadly wrong; over the money for energy that was announced because the coal industry is going wrong; or over new clause 1, which was introduced because of worries in the Post Office. I am sorry to say that the new clause well merits the title of a "Corporal Jones" clause.
Mr. Baldry: At least in yesterday's statement on energy, the House was told how much money would be involved--there will be £100 million for the coal industry. The Secretary of State has given us no indication as to whether the subsidy for the post offices is £10 million, £50 million or £100 million, or whether the whole £400 million savings from the move to ACT will be included. We have been told neither how substantial that subsidy will be, nor what will trigger it. Discussions will apparently be held with a person; we know that that person could be anyone in the world apart from my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow). In the light of those points, can we be satisfied as to the validity of the new clause?
Mr. Page: My hon. Friend served on the Standing Committee, so he is well aware of all the Bill's provisions. He makes a valid point. Despite the Secretary of State's protestations, unfortunately, the new clause should have been tabled much earlier in the Bill's proceedings. We could then have taken more detailed advice and gone into greater depth on the matter. We could have held consultations--especially with the National Federation of Sub-Postmasters, and obtained more detailed information on their views.
Mr. Bercow: Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Page: If my hon. Friend will hold his horses for 30 seconds, I will of course give way. I believe that the expression "a blank cheque" is a valid and accurate description of the new clause.
Mr. Bercow: As my hon. Friend knows, I am of a naturally suspicious turn of mind. Given the latest demonstration from the Secretary of State of pork-barrel politics that we witnessed yesterday afternoon, does my hon. Friend agree that, whatever the merits of the proposed new subsidy, we simply cannot be certain about its impartial distribution? Is there not a danger that it could be used by a Secretary of State, if not the present incumbent, as a slush fund to bail out beleaguered Labour Members in marginal constituencies?
Mr. Page: My hon. Friend makes his point in his usual delicate fashion. It will not have escaped the Secretary of State's notice that my hon. Friend has a few concerns in this area. I believe that those are justifiable concerns, because the new clause uses the following phraseology:
- Payments under a scheme under this section shall be made by the Secretary of State or by another person.
Surely the Government would have had no difficulty in tabling the amendment in Committee. It could then have been debated in Committee and it would not have been above the wit and wisdom of the serried ranks of officials that the Minister and the Secretary of State have at their beck and call to devise some small amendment that would have provided an opportunity for the clause to be fully debated on the Floor of the House.
I believe that the new clause is a panic measure. The cost is as long as a piece of string--I might mix all the metaphors and bring in the "blank cheque" introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for West Chelmsford (Mr. Burns). The only time when I felt that the Secretary of State was speaking from his political heart was when he said that the lobby of a couple of thousand postmasters, and the thought of 3 million signatures dropping into the foyer of No. 10 Downing street, helped to concentrate his mind on the matter.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |