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6.45 pm
Of course, the fact that we have got this far is greatly to the credit of people throughout the country, including many Members of Parliament, parish councils, post offices and communities involved in the campaign to save village post offices. At the last moment, the Government have been willing to make a nominal concession, even though they were not prepared to make any concessions in Committee. The Secretary of State in his reply must give the House better guarantees than he did when opening the debate, and reassure us that the subsidy will be genuinely forthcoming and is not simply a sop to get the Bill through Report and Third Reading or, more significantly, to get the Government through the haemorrhaging of Labour support in the local government elections on 4 May.
The Government Whip, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Mr. Jamieson) may laugh, but like my colleagues, I have spent the greater part of the past two weeks knocking on doors in my constituency. When one has been a Member of Parliament for as long as I have, one has walked the streets many times before. I can tell the hon. Gentleman that he need not look forward to waking up on 5 May.
Announcing a subsidy would be pitiful if it were simply a sop to get the Labour party through a massive loss of seats in local elections in rural areas on 5 May. On the other hand, it could be a genuine attempt to address what the Government now accept as a real problem resulting from the introduction of automated credit transfer, which would undermine the long-term viability of the rural post office network. The Secretary of State owes it to the House and the rural post office network to give Parliament and the country much more information about how the new clause will operate than he has done so far.
Of course, had the new clause been introduced in Standing Committee--as it should have been--we could have spent some time cross-examining the Secretary of State or the Minister for Competitiveness; we could have tabled parliamentary questions and fleshed matters out. Introducing what the Secretary of State himself admits is one of the most important clauses in the Bill on Report is a discourtesy to the House--although that is neither here nor there--and, much more importantly, avoids proper scrutiny, giving the impression that the new clause is not a matter of substance, but a sop. By such means, the Government hope to convince people that they are doing something for rural post offices when, in truth, they have little intention of doing anything to protect the integrity of the rural post office network.
Mr. Howard Flight (Arundel and South Downs): As my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Baldry) has just pointed out, the debate has exposed the fact that new clause 1 is of no value in addressing the problem. Whether it is con or sop, it fails to make explicit specific sums of money, periods of time or circumstances, and therefore will not help a retiring sub-postmaster sell his post office and will make no difference to his position. I hope that
the Government are not deliberately intending to mislead the public and sub-postmasters in presenting the new clause purely as a piece of window-dressing. Whether or not that is their intention, the new clause does not solve the problem.The whole House, I believe, thinks it essential for post offices to develop new business corridors. Recently, I had a long conversation with a sub-postmaster in my constituency, who spoke enthusiastically about Horizon and how he would sell people tickets for theatres, travel and so on. The closure of branches by clearing banks provides a great opportunity for the post office network to do the grassroots job of banks and to pick up banking business. I shall focus on the latter point. Sub-post offices are a network in the banking business, serving the underprivileged community whom the Government like to call the socially excluded. Massive effort has been expended by the Government in focusing on the socially excluded and the fact that they do not have banking services; we have also heard lots of humbug, talk and waffle about credit unions.
The network of sub-post offices is the ideal network to provide banking services for the socially excluded. Its banking business should be supported, and the proposed version of ACT should not be introduced. I have a vision of the post office network of the future providing banking services to people who currently do not have them, in the more depressed areas of Liverpool and other rundown cities. The future of the sub-post office is not just a rural issue but an urban one.
A huge opportunity is being lost, and I urge the Government to think again and to postpone the introduction of ACT. They should plug in their social exclusion unit, which is advising them that the 20 per cent. of the community who do not have bank accounts should have them. Those people will not get accounts from the clearing banks, which are closing their branches. The Government should work with sub-postmasters--that splendid body of self-employed small business men--under the umbrella of what is in essence a public sector body. They are just the job to provide what is missing in banking services for our community.
Why waste the time of the House? Why try to mislead postmasters with the empty promise of new clause 1, which will not stop the collapse of the sub-post office network? It is at best honestly intended, and at worst purely a con, but it will not make post offices saleable when postmasters retire. The Government must think again, delay ACT and think constructively about how the sub-post office network can be rebuilt in the future.
Mr. Prior: At the beginning of the debate, my hon. Friend the Member for South-West Hertfordshire (Mr. Page) described new clause 1 as the Corporal Jones clause. That was an accurate description. The new clause has been forced on the Government at short notice in response to 3 million names on a petition, pressure from the Opposition, the forthcoming local elections, and a realisation that the introduction of ACT would have a dramatic impact on many thousands of sub-post offices around the country.
This evening we have heard that up to 75 per cent. of the income of a sub-post office can come from the payment of benefits and pensions. In my constituency, the level of income from that activity can be well over 50 per cent. It can be a great deal more when one takes into account the footfall impact if there is a village shop alongside or within the post office.
The most objectionable aspect of new clause 1 is the thought behind it--the assumption that commercial activity can be replaced by Government handouts. It is assumed that the entrepreneurs--the decent men and women who run sub-post offices--will be happy with handouts from the Government on an entirely discretionary basis.
Mr. Letwin: Was it not remarkable that when we asked the Secretary of State whether he intended a temporary subvention to enable viability on a commercial basis thereafter, or a permanent discretionary subvention, he produced what can best be described as extremely elegant waffle?
Mr. Prior: My hon. Friend is too kind. It was cosmetic flannel. The new clause is designed as a sop, as my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Baldry) said, to enable the Government to get through a few difficult weeks. It will become increasingly apparent to sub-postmasters and mistresses as time goes by that, under the new clause, they will be exchanging a commercial business and an income stream for which they have worked diligently over many years for handouts from the Government. No one who has been in receipt of handouts from the Government will consider that a reasonable swap.
I do not believe that the savings of £400 million a year identified by the Treasury will be realised. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley) said, there is a maxim in the Treasury that savings in one Department must take into account the extra costs in another. It is clear from new clause 1 that there will be costs in other Departments to offset those savings.
Post offices will not be able to replace the loss of income with Government subsidies, and the post office network will be increasingly vulnerable. The new clause is wholly unsatisfactory, a fact that the Opposition view with a great deal of suspicion. As time goes by, sub-postmasters and mistresses across the country will realise that they have been sold a pup by the Government. I hope that the Government will think again carefully about delaying for a long time the introduction of ACT.
Mr. Brady: I am pleased to have an opportunity to speak briefly in the debate on new clause 1, especially as I want to flag up the importance of the sub-post office network, not just in rural areas, which have been alluded to at length, but--
Mr. David Jamieson (Lord Commissioner to the Treasury) indicated assent.
Mr. Brady: I see that I have some support from someone on the Government Front Bench, for which I am grateful. As I was about to say, the network is also important in urban and suburban areas.
Mr. John M. Taylor: On the point that my hon. Friend is developing--the assumption that we are speaking of a rural problem, whereas in fact it is an urban problem--will he speculate whether those who do not have a bank account and are unlikely to have one are predominantly in rural or urban areas?
Mr. Brady: I suspect that they are in both but that there is a large concentration of those people, whom the Government sometimes choose to refer to as the socially excluded, in the urban areas and in suburban areas. In parts of my constituency, some fairly large council estates at present have the benefit of some local shops and post offices, which are being placed under threat by the Government. I am sure that that is the case also for many Labour Members. There is widespread concern that the facilities that are currently available for people in those circumstances may be removed.
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