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Mr. Letwin: Will my hon. Friend allow me to say that the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) who is, alas, unable to be in his place, but who is the chairman of the all-party group of which I am the secretary, specifically asked me to mention in the House that he believes that it would be a disaster if measures were taken exclusively for the rural areas, because as my hon. Friend said, it is classically in the urban areas where a great part of the problem lies?
Mr. Brady: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point, and for the opportunity to pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field), who speaks a great deal of sense on many matters, and who shares my determination to defend the excellent grammar schools that we have in some parts of the north-west--another issue on which I have considerable sympathy with the right hon. Gentleman.
The hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Cotter) paid a rather bizarre compliment to the Secretary of State, by suggesting that he had been both open and opaque in his presentation. Presumably that was intended to be at least half a compliment, but the only translation that I could come up with was that the hon. Gentleman was accusing the Secretary of State of being transparently evasive in what he is doing.
Mr. Taylor: Would it not be more appropriate to say that the right hon. Gentleman was incandescently obscure?
Mr. Brady: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. No doubt the creativity of our hon. Friends could produce many other variants.
New clause 1 provides no certainty whatever. It sets out no ground rules for determining whether there should be a subsidy, when there should be one, or how it should be applied. Important issues arise for sub-post offices in urban and suburban areas, where the market circumstances may be rather different from those of isolated rural sub-post offices. There are conceivably many instances when a town, village or community in an urban or suburban setting might have more than one post office. It is quite possible that both, or all, those post offices would be threatened, because they might all depend heavily on the income that they currently derive from the payment of pensions and other benefits.
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New clause 1 contains no criteria or ground rules suggesting how the Government would conclude whether one, both or all the post offices in question would be supported. Presumably, if their principal objective is to preserve a community service, the logic can extend only to support for one post office, because that would achieve the aim of securing the service on whose protection they wish to spend public money; but how are they to decide the way in which the subsidy is granted? Should they divide it between the post offices in an attempt to protect them all, and in so doing perhaps risk losing them all? The Secretary of State has been utterly opaque, and I can only assume that he has been deliberately opaque.
Mr. Swayne: May I suggest a reason for that opacity? Last Wednesday most Labour Members had a very disagreeable day. Anyone who was downstairs in the canteen and saw them buying tea for their constituents in order to salve their consciences will realise that new clause 1 is an emergency measure tabled by the Secretary of State to deal with the consequences of that disagreeable day, and that its lack of clarity results from the fact that none of it has been thought out.
Mr. Brady: I am always delighted to hear that members of the public have received some benefit from their Labour representatives. Even if it only runs to a cup of tea, that is a considerable improvement on what might otherwise be on offer--although, in this instance, the cup of tea seems inadequate compensation for the loss of a vital public service.
I hope that when he responds the Minister will put some flesh on the bones of new clause 1 by informing us of at least some of the criteria that are intended to apply to the distribution of subsidy to the post office sector as a whole, and to the distinction between different types of post office. I assume that the Secretary of State hopes to retain the public service benefit; what "map" has he in mind, in terms of the density, or distribution, of sub-post offices? What would the Government regard as the minimum requirement? How far does the Secretary of State think it reasonable for a pensioner or recipient of other benefit--perhaps a disabled person--to have to travel? What travelling time does he consider appropriate?
As in other contexts, some Members may be more concerned with the interests of large rural areas. As only a small part of my constituency is rural, I tend to turn my mind to the suburbs. It may take a person living in a suburb or city just as long to travel to a sub-post office as it takes someone in a rural area to traverse what is, in absolute terms, a greater distance. I should like to hear what criteria the Secretary of State would consider necessary to trigger, or justify, subsidy in such circumstances.
Mr. Bercow: I am sorry to pursue my hobby-horse again, but does my hon. Friend agree that it is vital in terms of confidence for us to have information confirming that the criteria are specific and precise and lend themselves readily to objective assessment, so that we can be assured that decisions will not be made--either by the Secretary of State or by his agents--according to arbitrary fiat or political preference?
Mr. Brady: I entirely agree. It is important both for steps to be taken to ensure that the subsidy--if there is
any--is distributed fairly, and for a clear rubric to be set out explaining how it will be distributed and in what circumstances. Sub-post offices and those who depend on them must have some guarantee that new clause 1 will actually deliver.The fairness and clarity called for by my hon. Friend are particularly important in view of the disproportionate effect that the proposals may have on certain social and demographic groups. According to recent newspaper reports, the Labour party has now decided that it has no intention of targeting the elderly, because it does not think they are likely to vote Labour in the future.
Mr. Bercow: And it thinks that they are all racists.
Admittedly, I hope that most people who have achieved a certain age will have the wisdom not to vote for the Labour party; but given that Labour has said in internal strategy documents that it has no intention of appealing to the pensioner vote, we are forced to ask again what exactly is the purpose of new clause 1.
If any substance were given to the new clause--if the Government acted to protect sub-post offices--many pensioners would benefit. As my hon. Friend suggested, it would be entirely wrong for the funds, if there are any, to be distributed according to party advantage. That surely would not happen under the present Government, but I venture to make another suggestion.
The new clause was introduced at a late stage. It is a panic measure, tabled in response to a large petition, a lobby of Parliament and the sudden realisation that this was a matter of great public concern. Given that the whole project was conceived as a response to obvious public dissatisfaction and worry about the closure of post offices, we must be left with the suspicion that if the new clause is adopted, and if the Treasury ever agrees to provide funds to back it up, what decisions are made may well depend on who is prepared to shout loudest and make the biggest row about the possible loss of post office services in their communities.
Let me now say something about the concern caused by the Government's general policy of moving towards a subsidised system of provision.
Mr. Bercow: Before my hon. Friend embarks on his new point--which I await with beads of sweat on my brow, and with eager anticipation--let me ask him this. Does he agree that, in view of the Secretary of State's opacity, and the uncertainty about the final form of the scheme, it is important that the regulations--subject to the affirmative procedure--should also be subject to a minimum consultation period of three months?
Mr. Brady: My hon. Friend makes a wise point. I was not, of course, going to comment on the beads of sweat that are apparent on his brow. It is indeed important that there should be proper consultation and an appropriate period for consideration of the detail of any proposals that the Secretary of State may present at some point in the future. Those who have a legitimate interest or anxiety, whether they run sub-post offices or depend on their services, should be able to express their views before the affirmative resolution procedure is implemented. We can hope for a truly fair, clear and reasonable system only if that happens.
Even if all those criteria are fulfilled, we are left in an unfortunate position. The Secretary of State claims that his objective is to encourage greater commercialisation of the Post Office and greater entrepreneurship in sub-post offices, yet all his actions and proposals will achieve the opposite. Far from encouraging entrepreneurship or persuading sub-post offices to explore methods of maximising their income by providing services, the Secretary of State will lead them to dependence on public subsidy. By following that unfortunate path, he may achieve the reverse of his intentions, discourage entrepreneurial endeavour and proper commercial activity in sub-post offices and push them towards a model of employment status, or even the status of a nationalised service.
It is bizarre that some Liberal Democrat and some Labour Members have tried to link the new clause with privatising the Royal Mail. That argument is entirely bogus because, as my hon. Friend the Member for South-West Hertfordshire (Mr. Page) pointed out, sub-post offices are already predominantly in the private sector. New clause 1 is far from being a proposal for privatisation of post office services; indeed, it is a proposal for the potential nationalisation of part of the network.
New clause 1 would discourage entrepreneurial activity, commercialisation of the network and the independent small businesses that have served communities so well for many years. I repeat the caveat that we do not know whether new clause 1 will be accepted. However, if it is to have substance and revenue to support it, or if it is to be effected meaningfully, it will encourage a state, nationalised post office service. If that happens, the fears of my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow) will be realised. We are considering a planned economy and the ability of Ministers and their officials to decide how to provide services by determining the number of post offices, their location and the sort of communities they should serve.
The problem is of the Government's making. The Government have put in train changes in the payment system for pensions and benefits that will cost the sub-post offices an enormous sum. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley) said, the Government's proposals do not have the benefit of a saving to the Exchequer. The tabling of new clause 1 is an admission that an administrative development, which will cause real suffering and difficulty for many people, has no true financial benefit.
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