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Mr. Page: I thank the Minister for his comprehensive response to the amendments that my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr. Duncan) and I submitted.
I thought that the Minister was remarkably cruel to the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Cotter). He should remember that the hon. Gentleman represents a party that is the Government's ally in Scotland. I find it slightly hurtful that the Minister should so thoroughly humiliate the hon. Gentleman in the Chamber. I suggest that, in future, the Minister should adopt the approach of forgiving the hon. Gentleman because he knoweth not what he does.
We all know that when the Government are in trouble, they start harking back to the past, going back to the previous Government and history, when they should be looking to the future. The plain fact is that a year ago, the Government announced their intention to introduce certain reductions of the limits, and within a week or so, under a little pressure, they collapsed and caved in. Now the Minister is trying to get the commission to do the Government's work for them. I find that unsatisfactory. In his position, I would find it highly embarrassing. Nevertheless, in the circumstances, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Mr. Alan Johnson: I beg to move amendment No. 30, in page 5, line 35, leave out from "letters" to end of line 39 and insert--
'of members of a document exchange from a departure facility for that exchange to an arrival facility for another document exchange by persons who are not members of either exchange, and the collection and delivery by such persons for that purpose of letters delivered to the departure facility concerned,'.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 31 to 33, 19 to 22, 47, 23 to 29 and 53.
Mr. Johnson: In view of the time and my cold, I shall be brief. The amendments are technical and deal with matters such as petitions to the National Assembly for Wales. Hon. Members who served on the Committee may remember that we gave a commitment to introduce relevant amendments on Report.
I shall spend a couple of minutes on certain aspects of amendments Nos. 30 to 33, which deal with document exchange centres. I need to put on record the reasoning behind the amendments.
9.15 pm
We have a general policy of replacing the system of class licences with exceptions to clause 6. Document exchange is currently subject to a class licence, and including this exception in the Bill will allow a useful service to continue. Document exchange is a system used by many professionals, such as lawyers and insurers, who are members of a local document exchange to exchange documents with other members of that local document exchange. We have already defined such an exchange in the Bill as a system involving at least three members for each local document exchange, in order to ensure that this does not become an end-to-end service breaching the reserved area without a licence.
Similar institutions exist in Europe, but they are not common. In the United Kingdom, the system has developed almost uniquely to include the conveyance and sorting of letters between document exchanges, with the result that a national network linking document exchanges has evolved.
The amendment makes it clear that the exception allows for the conveyance of letters between document exchanges by a third party. We have now defined that more closely as transport between the departure facility of one document exchange and conveyance to the arrival facility of another document exchange. What the exception is not intended to do is permit end-to-end delivery by a third party. That would allow cream-skimming: it would allow unlicensed operators to jeopardise the universal service at a uniform tariff. To ensure that that does not happen, conveyance can occur only between the arrival and departure facilities of the document exchange, not within the document exchange. The letters being conveyed must be intended for a document exchange other than the one from which they are being sent, and the third party providing the service must not be a member of either of the document exchanges concerned.
The members of any document exchange are responsible for the delivery and collection of their own letters. The amendment that we tabled earlier inadvertently left the slim possibility that a third party could take letters between the members within an exchange. Although the possibility was only slim, we could see that the loophole could have been exploited to create a rival end-to-end delivery system to a licensed universal service provider, but without having to obtain a licence from the commission. The amendment removes that possibility.
As of now, nothing in the amendment would prevent the arrival and departure facilities from being located on the premises of a member of the exchange, as is frequently the case in the United Kingdom--although the requirement for three members means that it would not be possible to establish a sham document exchange in which the only member was the person on whose premises the exchange was located.
Amendments made: No. 31, in page 6, line 10, at end insert--
' "arrival facility", in relation to a document exchange, means any box, receptacle or other facility associated with that exchange which is provided for the receipt of letters from members of another document exchange
No. 32, in page 7, line 2, at end insert--
' "departure facility", in relation to a document exchange, means any box, receptacle or other facility associated with that exchange which is provided for the collection of letters of members of that exchange which are delivered to the facility by those members for conveyance to an arrival facility for another document exchange for collection by members of that other exchange,'.
No. 33, in page 7, leave out lines 5 to 7.--[Mr. Betts.]
Clause 27
Mr. Alan Johnson: I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 18, line 28, after "modifications", insert--
'and the Commission complies with the requirements of subsection (1A)'.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendments Nos. 2 to 9.
Amendment No. 70, in clause 38, page 25, line 8, at end insert--
'and if a person objects to entry of anything in the register, he may appeal to the Secretary of State who may direct the Commission not to enter it.'.
Government amendments Nos. 10 to 14.
Amendment No. 74, in clause 53, page 33, line 41, at end insert--
'( ) The Council shall, in exercising its functions, have regard to the interests of--
(a) individuals who are disabled or chronically sick,
(b) individuals of pensionable age,
(c) individuals with low incomes,
(d) individuals residing in rural areas, and
(e) individuals who are homeless,
but that is not to be taken as implying that regard may not be had to the interests of other descriptions of persons.'.
Mr. Johnson: I hope that hon. Members will find our amendments uncontroversial, but I ask the House to resist amendments Nos. 70 and 74.
The main purpose of amendments Nos. 1 to 8 is to introduce the change that I promised the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Cotter) when he withdrew a similar amendment in Committee. They will make sensible changes to the Bill. When the Postal Services Commission is able, under clause 27, to modify an enforcement order with the consent of the licence holder, it will now have to comply with the requirements of the new subsection that we are introducing. It will have to give notice of the proposed change to the Consumer Council for Postal Services, and must consider any representations that it makes. That will provide an additional chance for consumers' interests to be aired.
Amendments Nos. 6 and 7 are minor technical measures. They are simply a matter of common sense, requiring all relevant parties to be given notice of the commission's decisions. Amendment No. 9 is a small
consequential amendment to clause 38. It flows from the introduction of a licence modification procedure in Committee.Amendments Nos. 10 and 11 to clause 43 tackle an anxiety that was raised in Committee by the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr. Duncan), who we hope is now sitting up and eating his Scotch broth. Clause 43 currently requires the commission to keep under review and collect information on postal services
- in the United Kingdom and elsewhere . . .
Amendments Nos. 12 to 14 deal with another anxiety that the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare raised in Committee. Clause 53 currently specifies that the council must have regard to the views of users in different areas when carrying out its functions in relation to the relevant postal services. The purpose of the amendments is to clarify that the council, in exercising its functions, should consider the interests of the specified groups of individuals.
I understand that the reason for amendment No. 70 is to ensure adequate safeguards to protect the affairs of individuals. That is a worthy objective about which we agree. However, we believe that clause 38 sufficiently protects the rights of individuals.
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