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Mrs. Liddell: It is interesting that the official Opposition are much more interested in procedural matters than in the Bill. I suspect that that is because the Bill concentrates on the protection of the consumer, and, in certain parts, on the most disadvantaged consumers.
We have debated on a number of occasions the Government's reasons for dropping telecommunications and water from the Bill. I shall not rehearse in their entirety today because that would take up the time of the House unnecessarily. On Second Reading and in Committee we discussed how the telecommunications industry is one of rapid change.
A few weeks ago, I was told that there are three speeds in modern life. There is political speed, which is slow; commercial speed, which we always used to think of as fast; and there is internet speed, where a year can be reduced to a few weeks. In this House we do not operate at internet speed, but the telecommunications industry does.
On Second Reading and in Committee we also debated the changes in the industry, and the fact that it would be necessary to revisit telecom regulations to ensure that changes in the industry, some of which we cannot foretell at the moment, are taken into account.
After the Bill's publication, the industry, no doubt having reflected on the issues raised in the debate, came to the Department to express its concern about the prospect of two separate sets of regulations over a short period, and one can understand that. There would have been one set of changes now and another set when further communications legislation was implemented. Removing telecommunications from the Bill was perceived as a common-sense move, especially as a communications White Paper was on the stocks. That White Paper involves not only the Department of Trade and Industry but the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.
Mr. Gibb: What is the Government's intention for the regulation of the telecommunications sector, which will be outlined in the White Paper to be published in the autumn? Will the Minister take the same approach to telecommunications as she took to electricity, or will she bring a lighter touch to bear on the regulation of a fast-moving sector?
Mrs. Liddell: I shall deal with that later, because it relates to points that the hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) made. I shall wait until I tackle those points rather than giving a disjointed response.
The water industry expressed anxieties about the possibility of further regulatory changes in the Water Bill. The Queen's Speech stated that a Water Bill would be introduced, and that its changes would be additional to those in the Utilities Bill. It is common sense to make sure that the industry does not have to change the regulatory structure twice.
Hon. Members have asked about our commitment to the future shape of telecommunications. The Government remain committed to the proposals in the Bill. In all the utility sectors, we want to secure a more transparent regulatory framework, an independent voice for consumers and a stronger focus on protecting their interests. Those principles will apply in the separate water and telecommunications measures. Some modification is possible. That is logical--I am sure that hon. Members would not wish us to ignore the views of consumers and the industry in the consultation process. However, we intend the principles of the Utilities Bill to apply to future legislation.
We intend to publish a communications White Paper later this year. It is too early to say when legislation will follow, not least because of the pressures on the House. It is not for me or anybody in the Chamber to dictate the contents of the forward programme for the next Session.
Mr. Gibb: Far be it for me to make a suggestion--but I shall do so anyway. Perhaps the Government could present a slightly less burdensome legislative programme. They might then discover that their Bills did not require 300 or 400 Government amendments.
Mrs. Liddell: When a Government take over after 18 years of incompetence, a heavy legislative programme is inevitable. We went to the country with specific commitments; the country responded, and we have to undo the mistakes of 18 years of Conservative rule. We therefore have a heavy legislative programme.
The prize for removing telecommunications and water from the Bill is that the industries will be subject to only one set of legislative changes. We all acknowledge that that is important. The hon. Member for South Dorset (Mr. Bruce) referred to the auction in mobile telecommunications. That is a matter for other Departments, and I would therefore prefer to leave it to them to respond. However, it emphasises the significance of the changes in mobile telephony. It is vital that we respond in legislation to the changes in the marketplace.
Mr. Ian Bruce: I am a little confused, because I served on the Committee that considered the Bill, which provided for the Government to auction their radio spectrum. The Bill was a Department of Trade and Industry measure. Although the Treasury collects the money, surely we are considering a Department of Trade and Industry matter. We would therefore expect a senior DTI Minister to have an opinion about what should happen to the money.
4.45 pm
Mrs. Liddell: Given that those matters are being discussed, I am surprised that someone as experienced as the hon. Gentleman suggests that we might care to discuss them in detail this afternoon.
The hon. Member for Twickenham asked about a statutory consumer council for telecoms. The Government's view is that a statutory consumer council would be the most appropriate mechanism to meet the central aim of giving consumers an effective voice in the telecoms sector. The White Paper, which will be published in the autumn, will have a much wider ambit and will consider issues such as broadcasting. It will introduce different matters such as the interface with content regulation. Although the central aim remains the same, its manifestation may be different, as I am sure he recognises.
The hon. Gentleman said that the consumer groups feel aggrieved that the first remarks that they heard about telecoms and water being removed were made in the Chamber, but I am sure that, on reflection, he will appreciate that that is the appropriate way in which to deal with such matters. Given that the Bill had already been committed to a Standing Committee, it would not have been appropriate for any announcement to be made outside the House or for any consultation on those matters to take place. We acted as expeditiously as possible to inform the House after the decision had be taken.
The new clause is important. To an extent, it will tidy the Bill and enhance it because people, especially the public, will find it easier to use. At the beginning of the debate, it was suggested that more substantial changes might be proposed in another place. The Government do not intend to introduce further substantial changes. Amendments will be tabled in the other place, but they will all be based on issues that have been raised already.
Mr. Gibb: Will the Minister confirm that provision will be made for transfer schemes for public electricity suppliers?
These measures represent the remaining stages of the Government's preparation of the Bill. My anxiety--I hope that it is shared by Members across the House--is to ensure that consumers gain the benefits of the Bill as quickly as possible.
Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 2
Sources of electricity generation
'. The Secretary of State shall, at least once per year, publish an analysis of the proportion of electricity produced from each type of generation over the previous 12 months, together with a statement by him of the Government's policy in relation to each of those types of generation.'.--[Mr. Gibb.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
Mr. Gibb: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 28, in clause 48, page 48, line 36, at end insert--
';--
(c) to facilitate the development of embedded generation;
(d) to support the achievement of the Government's national renewable energy targets by facilitating small-scale renewable generation through net metering.'.
Mr. Gibb: The purpose of the new clause is to ensure that the Government have a coherent energy policy. It would require the Secretary of State to publish each year an analysis of the proportion of electricity generated from each source. About 30 per cent. of our electricity comes from gas; about 30 per cent. from nuclear power; and another 30 per cent. from coal. The remaining 10 per cent. is made up of electricity imported through the interconnector with France and renewables.
On Monday, it became obvious--if is was not already--that the Government do not have a clear energy policy or long-term strategy. If I am wrong, perhaps the Minister will set that strategy out, for the benefit of the House and the public. The Government's last known pronouncement on energy policy generally was their energy White Paper, published in October 1998, but, as everyone knows, it was simply an exercise in ex post facto rationalisation of a politically driven decision to impose a moratorium on building new gas-fired power stations.
The justification for that decision was based on the bogus notion that companies would invest hundreds of millions of pounds in new gas-fired plant simply in response to temporarily high electricity prices, resulting from the fact that the electricity pool was not the right mechanism for the electricity market as it had developed since privatisation.
Given that the industry has known for many years that revised electricity trading arrangements were being developed, it was clear that prices would fall in the medium term. Investors will not invest on the basis of the price of a product in the short term, so the suggestion that there needed to be a moratorium to prevent investors from responding to this short-term price hike is absolute nonsense, and everyone in the industry knows that. No doubt that is why the Secretary of State took the earliest opportunity to lift the moratorium.
It would be interesting to hear from the Minister whether she has received legal advice about the legality of the moratorium--the stricter consents policy. I should be grateful for a confirmation of that.
The notion that all the problems highlighted in the White Paper will be solved when the new electricity trading arrangements come into effect in October is bogus. The White Paper implied that the Government want to see the new electricity trading arrangements working to ensure that they deliver lower prices before lifting the stricter consents policy. However, the Secretary of State has now announced that the moratorium will be lifted as soon as NETA become law this summer, if the Bill gets Royal Assent. This legislation will be in place by October.
Even the Labour-dominated Select Committee on Trade and Industry says:
- We do not believe that this moratorium on section 36 . . . consents . . . will assist the coal industry in the short run . . . we look to the Government to ensure that . . . the moratorium is lifted as soon as practicable.
The new clause is designed to help the Government to focus on developing a proper long-term energy policy for Britain. We need a statement from the Minister about how the Government believe Britain's energy needs can be met, by what sources and how that ties in with the Government's Kyoto commitments and their domestic commitment of reducing carbon dioxide emissions to 20 per cent. below 1990 levels by 2010.
That brings me to the great deceit in the Government's energy policy as enunciated in their White Paper, which states that the Government would expect to see a decline in CO 2 emissions from the power generation sector over the period covered by the Kyoto protocol, even on scenarios that retain the gas moratorium in 2008-12. Carbon dioxide levels have already fallen considerably below the 1990 levels.
The key issue about the 2008-12 Kyoto protocol target date is that from 2010 onwards--and even earlier--the United Kingdom will have significantly reduced its nuclear
capacity as Britain continues to decommission Magnox nuclear power stations. Of course the Government will meet the 2008-12 target date for reducing CO 2 emissions to 12.5 per cent. below 1990 levels, but the key issue is what happens from 2012 onwards. The whole of the Government's strategy is aimed at that date. They have given little thought to what should happen beyond 2012.On the basis of the Government's energy policy, it looks as though CO 2 emissions will begin to rise from 2012. They need to set out their policy on nuclear power as more and more of the older stations are decommissioned. Will they authorise the building of new nuclear plant? If not, how do they intend to ensure that CO 2 targets are met without the nuclear component? What is their policy on this matter? No doubt the right hon. Lady will say that she has received no requests from the nuclear industry to build new nuclear plant, because at the moment it does not regard doing so as economically worth while. The Kyoto commitments, however, impose on the market an artificial constraint to which Governments must respond. That is why there are provisions, in the Bill and elsewhere, that artificially nudge and encourage the free market to produce power by methods that it would not otherwise use, in order to help the Government and the country as a whole to meet the carbon dioxide emissions targets.
Nuclear energy plays a key role in fulfilling our carbon dioxide commitments, and in keeping our commitments at low levels. It is essential for the Government to respond to what happens when the nuclear power stations begin to be decommissioned. What is their long-term policy on nuclear energy?
What is the Government's policy on the granting of section 36 consents after October 2000? Will everyone who applies to the Department of Trade and Industry to build a gas-fired power station be given permission, now that the stricter consents policy is to be lifted in October, or will the Government apply different criteria--the same criteria that enabled them to support the building of the station at Baglan bay? Will those criteria now obtain across the country, or will the Government simply bring back the stricter consents policy in another guise? We need a statement from them.
In preparing an application to the DTI, industry incurs considerable costs. It must know what it is up against--what hurdles it needs to convince the Government about. Indeed, it needs to know that there is no point in applying for a section 36 consent in certain circumstances, and it needs to know precisely what those circumstances are.
What proportion of Britain's energy needs do the Government expect to be met by gas, coal and nuclear energy in 2020? What proportion do they expect to come from renewables? We need to know what they have in mind for each of those sources of electricity. If the target percentage for renewables is met, will that be sufficient for Britain to continue to show a decline in carbon dioxide emissions from electricity generation?
Those are the questions that the Government have so far refused to answer--or, more likely, are unable to answer. However, they need to be answered if industry is to be able to plan ahead. The Minister now has a chance to set out her energy policy: if she is on top of her brief, she should not find that very difficult. Will she give us, for example, her Department's estimate of the likely proportions of electricity generation by gas, coal and
nuclear energy in 2005, 2010 and 2020? What is her estimate of the reserves of discovered and undiscovered gas in the North sea?
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