| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Gibb: It was an outrageous rather than a disappointing response.
Industry and others wish to see many of the Bill's provisions on the statute book as soon as possible--for example, NETA and the separation of distribution and electricity supply--but the penalties to be imposed on industry for contravening licence conditions and for failing to perform to the standards required in the Bill alarm industry.
The Minister says that companies have to understand that they must comply with the licence conditions, but they do understand that. Those companies are run by people who want to obey the conditions to which they have signed up. They want to meet the conditions relating to standards of performance and to provide a good service to their customers, but there will be inadvertent transgressions. The Bill, in contrast to the current regulatory regime, makes no allowance for inadvertent transgressions. Any transgression--inadvertent, deliberate or otherwise--will be covered and will give rise to a penalty. That is the difference between this regulatory regime and the current one. There is no chance of companies being able to put matters right. Having tried to put things right, they will still be subject to a fine, which could be sufficient to wipe out the company because there is no limit in the Bill.
The Minister says that the amendments are at odds with the objective of protecting the consumer, but I am afraid that the limitless fine provisions are at odds with the objective of protecting the consumer. If a fine is imposed, it will ultimately be borne by the consumer. All moneys paid out by companies will ultimately be paid by the consumer.
The increased regulatory risk caused by the limitless fine will increase the cost of capital to companies, which again will be passed on to the consumer. [Interruption.] I am sorry that the Minister finds some of my responses patronising. They are not meant to be. I know that the Minister is having a go at me today, but the fact remains that both Ministers demonstrate a lack of understanding of how business works. I say that not because I know anything about their education, experience or background, but because of what they are saying about the Bill and the way in which they are trying to justify the provisions. They fail to understand the consequences of the measures that they propose. Describing elements of the CBI and the IOD as paranoid will not go down well with them.
Dr. Howells: The hon. Gentleman distorts my words. I said that he likes to paint himself as a conduit for the most paranoid sections of the CBI.
Mr. Gibb: As I said in Committee, I would be a conduit for anybody with whose representations I agree, whether they be consumer groups, business groups or
individual constituents. I shall continue to do that despite the Minister's criticism, because that is what we are here to do. Our task is to deliver the views of all sections of society in the House, particularly those that are affected by the Bill. British consumers will be enormously damaged by the Bill, which will add enormously to the costs that industry will have to pick up and then pass on to the consumer.It is staggering how many times Opposition Members have to repeat that measures that add to industry's costs--whether in higher regulatory risk, higher interest charges or costs incurred in having to comply with guidance issued by the Secretary of State--will ultimately be paid for by the consumer. That reveals a lack of understanding about how industry works. It is a pity that, as a consequence of the Bill, customers will not benefit from the falls in electricity and gas prices to which they would otherwise be entitled.
We have debated the amendment sufficiently. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 60
Amendment proposed: No. 3, in page 60, leave out lines 37 to 40.--[Mr. Pope.]
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The House divided: Ayes 260, Noes 30.
AYES
Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)
Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)
Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)
Benton, Joe
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Borrow, David
Bradley, Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brinton, Mrs Helen
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Buck, Ms Karen
Burgon, Colin
Butler, Mrs Christine
Byers, Rt Hon Stephen
Caborn, Rt Hon Richard
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, Dale
Cann, Jamie
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Clark, Dr Lynda
(Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clwyd, Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, David
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Darvill, Keith
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Davis, Rt Hon Terry
(B'ham Hodge H)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Efford, Clive
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Field, Rt Hon Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Fyfe, Maria
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, Bruce (Walsall S)
Gibson, Dr Ian
Gilroy, Mrs Linda
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Grogan, John
Hain, Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hanson, David
Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet
Heal, Mrs Sylvia
Healey, John
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hill, Keith
Hoey, Kate
Hoon, Rt Hon Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Howells, Dr Kim
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Ms Jenny
(Wolverh'ton SW)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S
Kidney, David
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
Kumar, Dr Ashok
Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom
Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Lock, David
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
Macdonald, Calum
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Mrs Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNulty, Tony
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Maxton, John
Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Meale, Alan
Michael, Rt Hon Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle
(B'ham Yardley)
Mountford, Kali
Mowlam, Rt Hon Marjorie
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
Organ, Mrs Diana
Palmer, Dr Nick
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris
Pope, Greg
Pound, Stephen
Powell, Sir Raymond
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prescott, Rt Hon John
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Rt Hon Ms Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd
Raynsford, Nick
Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)
Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Roy, Frank
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)
Salter, Martin
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Snape, Peter
Soley, Clive
Spellar, John
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr Howard
Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin
Straw, Rt Hon Jack
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
(Dewsbury)
Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Touhig, Don
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Tynan, Bill
Ward, Ms Claire
Wareing, Robert N
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williams, Rt Hon Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Wood, Mike
Woodward, Shaun
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Gerry Sutcliffe and
Mrs. Anne McGuire.
NOES
Allan, Richard
Baker, Norman
Ballard, Jackie
Beggs, Roy
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Brake, Tom
Breed, Colin
Burnett, John
Cable, Dr Vincent
Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies
(NE Fife)
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Fearn, Ronnie
Foster, Don (Bath)
Hancock, Mike
Harvey, Nick
Kirkwood, Archy
Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Moore, Michael
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)
Oaten, Mark
Öpik, Lembit
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Sanders, Adrian
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Tyler, Paul
Willis, Phil
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Andrew Stunell and
Mr. David Heath.
Question accordingly agreed to.
Amendment made: No. 4, in page 104, line 1, leave out Clauses 100 to 105.--[Mr. Pope.]
Motion to transfer clause 107, agreed to.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |