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2.49 pm
Mr. John McFall (Dumbarton): It is a privilege for me to participate in this debate and to reflect on the Government's work, globally and locally. I am particularly interested in local matters, given that the Clyde submarine base and Coulport are in my constituency.
I congratulate the Government. Much mention has been made of global issues. When the Labour Government were elected in 1997, they banned land mines, so there will be no import, no export, no manufacture or transfer of land mines. No British soldier will ever lay an anti-personnel land mine. That is a great achievement. We can be proud of Britain's role in the world on that issue.
Mention has also been made of the strategic defence review. The problems have been going on for more than a decade. I was a member of the Select Committee on Defence when the right hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) was Secretary of State for Defence and we were grappling with the problems of a post-cold war world. A common theme that has emerged under both Governments is: how do we respond to a changed world and make our forces more flexible and mobile? At the core of that is the need for change in our armed forces.
I know that great moves have been made over the past decade and I encourage the Government to continue to ensure that our forces have the flexibility and the mobility to respond to the crises in East Timor, Mozambique and other places that have been mentioned in the debate.Although I recognise the need for the strategic defence review, I also understand the need to free up money for the front line. That is a key issue. We must eliminate unnecessary duplication across the three armed services, dispose of surplus MOD property and come up to date with e-commerce and information technology so as to eliminate unnecessary bureaucracy. I wish to pose several questions about those issues. Although I recognise that changes must be made, the way that they are carried out is extremely important. How we go about our business concerns me.
As I said, I have an interest in the subject because of the bases in my constituency. It is important to emphasise how crucial those facilities are to Scotland, particularly when we hear the rantings of members of the Scottish National party. [Hon. Members: "Where are they?"] Exactly--they are not here for this debate. I have heard vacuous comments from the leader of the SNP and others about the Clyde submarine base, Coulport and Rosyth, and their argument that everything can be done by conventional ships. He knows, in his heart of hearts, and we know that that is total nonsense.
For the sake of individuals and political parties in Scotland, it is worth noting that in 1997-98, 10,640 full-time equivalent direct jobs were provided by the operations of the Royal Navy bases in Scotland. A total of £265 million in gross wages and salaries was paid to the employees at those bases, and of that figure more than 70 per cent. was paid in my constituency. Some 6,000 full-time equivalent jobs were provided for civilian employees, mainly civil servants, and more than two thirds of them were provided at the Clyde base. A further 4,641 jobs were for Royal Navy personnel, which were also concentrated at the Clyde base.
Taking into consideration other employment, other income, supply linkages and the fact that local firms have been given support, in 1997-98 the Clyde base generated for the Scottish economy 10,785 full-time equivalent jobs, 70 per cent. of which were civilian jobs. The resulting income for the area is estimated at £256 million, of which £154 million comprises wages and salaries to civilians. The base makes a substantial contribution to the local economy of Dumbartonshire, where more than 9,100 jobs have been generated, of which nearly 6,000 are for civilian residents. That is equivalent to 11 per cent. of all full-time equivalent employees in Dumbartonshire. If the SNP's defence policy were implemented, we would have a huge problem throughout Scotland--and not least in my area.
It is relevant to note that the figure of more than 10,000 direct full-time equivalent posts provided by the Royal Navy is greater than the number of jobs provided by 25 of the 60 industrial and service sectors in Scotland during 1997. The jobs make a huge contribution and we must go about our business in a sensible and sensitive manner.
My hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (Dr. Godman) mentioned the Govan shipyard and the contract for ro-ro ferries. My hon. Friend the Minister will know the heat and the emotion that the issue
has generated in Scotland, particularly on the Clyde. Polaris came to the Clyde in 1963, when there were about 33 shipyards on the river. We are now left with two or three, but there is still a proud tradition in the Govan and Yarrow shipyards. Ministers and the Ministry of Defence should listen to the pleas of communities on Clydeside, because tradition, symbolism and community pride are involved in ensuring that we have such jobs to provide employment in the area.The problem for Govan is one of timing. I understand that contracts have been out to tender, but the contracts for the type 45 frigates will be made in three years' time. It is important that the yards have full orders to ensure the continuity of employment, and my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Inverclyde and others have made that very point.
Dr. Godman: I remind my hon. Friend that I have more constituents working in Govan than any other Clydeside Member. About 30 big orders will come from the MOD, but only four or five yards are capable of building the ships. My hon. Friend is right: those yards must be kept in operation to meet the massive orders that will come on stream very soon.
Mr. McFall: I mentioned the issue of community pride, but skilling is another factor. We do not want deskilling to take place on the Clyde so that, once this hiatus is over, we no longer have the work force to do the work. That important point must be made loud and clear to Ministers and the MOD. Had Ministers and others been in Glasgow when petitions were being organised, they would realise that there is a head of steam behind this issue.
My hon. Friend mentioned his constituents who work in the shipyards. Quite a number of my constituents also work in them, so we have a common interest in ensuring the stability of the Clyde yards.
Mr. Davidson: The case for shipbuilding on Clydeside is not based simply on emotion; it is based on the defence argument that it is absolutely and utterly essential that we retain the capability to build type 45 frigates and appropriate subsequent vessels. That capability will be maintained only if Govan Shipbuilders Ltd. is retained, as its new owners, British Aerospace, intend to operate Yarrow and Govan together as a twin-site location for a single yard.
We have a difficulty with the flow of orders at the moment, but did my hon. Friend notice, as I did, the breakdown of P&O's latest liner, which was built in a German yard? The Government should draw lessons from that, which I hope will lead them to conclude that what one pays little for at the outset might end up costing much more in repairs in the longer term.
Mr. McFall: My hon. Friend is extremely eloquent in putting the strategic case. The essence of his argument is that, if we want things to work, they have to be built on the Clyde. That message must be taken on board.
I raised the issue of service personnel residences in my constituency with my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary yesterday and he was kind enough to respond to me. The Churchill estate in Helensburgh, which has more than 700 homes, has for many years required attention and
renewal by the MOD. That has been taking place in the past few years, but the MOD and the Navy have a legitimate case for disposing of a number of those houses because of the reduction in the number of personnel. There is a duty to individuals who came to Faslane to secure jobs in the Royal Navy and who are now in those homes. There is also a responsibility to ex-wives of naval personnel, whose marriages have broken up but who still find themselves in the area. The problem has continued for almost three years and my hon. Friend will understand my frustration--that is the least of it--and that of individuals who feel that their future housing requirements are threatened by what they would regard as the capricious decision-making process of the Defence Housing Executive and others.I know that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary listened to me intently yesterday, and I understand that something will be done. I was on the telephone this morning to the Dunbritton housing association, which has put in a bid for the houses. Along with the Argyll and Bute council, it has been negotiating with the Defence Housing Executive over the past few years to take over the homes. It will soon be meeting Mr. Phillip Gibb of Defence Estates. I want the talks to take place urgently, as does the Minister. I know that he will be interested in the progress that is made. I hope that, over the next month or so, we can close the gap in perceptions between Defence Estates and the Dunbritton housing association, and ensure a good and stable future for many of the people in the Churchill estate.
There is a sound reason for having good social rented housing in the Helensburgh area, and the local Argyll and Bute council is aware of it. There are 523 applicants registered on the local authority housing waiting list for Helensburgh, and a further 163 are registered as statutory homeless persons. Last year, there were only 137 relets in the area. It is obvious that social rented housing is needed. The sooner that the Defence Housing Executive, Defence Estates, the Dunbritton housing association and the Argyll and Bute council sort out the matter, the better it will be for all. As I mentioned to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, I am willing to be involved in any negotiations at a local level to ensure that this three-year saga is brought to an end.
I bring to my hon. Friend's attention a letter that I received from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence on 18 April, in which he said that the new Defence Logistics Organisation was being launched. He also said that the targets for reducing costs were essential, while improving the quality of logistic support to the front line. That has caused much concern, especially to the work force in the area that I represent and the unions.
I received a delegation of representatives of the various unions--the Public and Commercial Services Union, the Amalgamated Engineering and Electrical Union, the Institution of Professionals, Managers and Specialists, the GMB and the Transport and General Workers Union--at my constituency surgery only last Friday. In the past week, I have been provided with one of the newsletters of the Clyde trade unions.
The unions feel that they have been betrayed by the MOD on this issue, which goes back to the DLO initiative headed by Brigadier Sam Cowan. Little information has been made available to the work force, whose members
feel that the negotiations that are taking place between Babcock Rosyth Defence Ltd., the MOD and private employers mean that their jobs will be lost. We have struggled for years to ensure that there is no privatisation at Rosyth or at the Clyde submarine base at Faslane. When, only a few years ago, there was such a threat involving HMS Neptune and catering supply services were threatened, the unions and I went to see the then Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton, North and Bellshill (Dr. Reid), who is now Secretary of State for Scotland. We put the unions' bid forward while recognising that money had to be saved under the strategic defence review for front-line services. The unions were willing to work with the MOD to ensure that that money was saved, but that jobs were also saved in the process.The HMS Neptune initiative resulted in a saving of £1 million a year to the services while jobs were retained. I ask the Minister to ensure that sensitivity is brought to the DLO initiative, otherwise fear will be induced in the work force and morale will decline. That is the last thing that we can tolerate in that environment.
I ask for clear guidance and for lines of communication to be opened with the unions to ensure that the contribution that they have made over the years is appreciated and that it will be maintained. There must be no rushed decisions or judgments on any possible privatisation. The Under-Secretary knows from my discussion yesterday that I shall be taking a close interest in these important matters as they develop, as will my hon. Friends.
I shall mention one or two matters in the context of Britain's role in the world, the first of which is arms control and non-proliferation. The post-cold war scenario indicates that one of the most serious threats is the proliferation of missiles, which can be adapted to carry biological, chemical, conventional and nuclear warheads. One problem is that missiles are used increasingly for legitimate purposes--for example, for satellites and space exploration. I suggest that our objective should be to establish a missile control convention, which would reduce proliferation by requiring full transparency, verification mechanisms and the establishing of international export controls.
Urgent attention should be given to introducing measures to curb the frightening spread of small arms, most of which are exported from the former Soviet states. A good example of such an initiative is the small arms moratorium in west Africa. However, we should be exploring other approaches at a small arms convention, which would place production, sales and, above all, exports under an international transparent regulatory framework.
We have widened our export control regime to European Union countries, but how can that be replicated globally? Should we be proceeding through the United Nations? We should be debating such measures so that they can be taken forward on the international stage.
There could be an international weapons monitoring centre, where satellite surveillance would be undertaken. It would provide the opportunity to have an international co-ordinating monitoring system for large weapons. A verification regime is essential for chemical and biological weapons through the biological weapons protocol.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State mentioned the important issue of joined-up government, which is important not least in terms of international development. If we are to have a stable and peaceful world, we must rigorously pursue the goal of international development. The countries where education is in the ascendancy and where economic development is taking place are largely at peace. War is taking place in countries where there is ravaging poverty and little education. Joined-up government means the Ministry of Defence working with the Foreign Office and the Department for International Development to ensure that our global aims in eradicating world poverty and ensuring that there is education throughout the world are realisable. These aims will not be pious in their objective; they will be pragmatic and will have profound strategic consequences in ensuring that we create a peaceful and stable world.
We must ensure that we have not only joined-up government but a global approach to solving problems, so that we can look forward to the day when we have a more decent world. With that in mind, the role of Britain in the world is extremely important. We are playing our part in promoting initiatives, and I hope that we will continue to do so.
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