| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
8 pm
We have not rushed to put a price tag on the overall costs. However, figures in the report do not contradict the views in the regulatory impact assessment which was published with the Bill. It estimated that the costs would be less than £20 million for the whole industry. We debated that in Committee.
We have been in continuing discussions with industry for a considerable time. The Smith report will be used as the basis for informed discussions with individual service providers and others. We welcome constructive
discussion with them. After we have consulted industry about those points and the specific point that the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire made, we have shall have a clear view of the potential costs. The hon. Gentleman will have noted that the Smith report concluded that the burden on industry to fulfil the Bill's obligations is "not onerous". I believe that that is so.I have tried to tackle as fully as possible the points that the amendments raised. I hope that hon. Members will support our amendments and reject those of the Opposition.
Mr. Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire): It is appropriate that my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) opened the debate because, on this occasion, the Opposition is like Oliver: we are asking for more. Sadly, the Minister has not acceded to that request, and we regret that.
Let us deal first with the amendments that tackle the reimbursement of costs. While we welcome Government amendment No. 25, it does not go far enough. We cannot understand why the Government continue to resist amendment No. 13. Government amendment No. 25 appears to impose a duty on the Secretary of State. To change "may he thinks fit" to "shall" is eminently sensible. However, the absence of a right of appeal on reimbursement is worrying. The Minister spoke in reassuring terms about the total cost of the process, but I do not share his optimism.
I draw the Minister's attention to the Smith report's clear finding that there is no single solution to the problem and that different costs will be imposed on different internet service providers. Although the Minister said that he would discuss with them the way in which the costs would be apportioned and the burdens that would be placed on them, the private sector does not always trust Governments.
The Minister made a useful point about new clause 4 and the duty to report to the House. However, it is important to have some idea of the costs that the Bill will impose on the Government and the providers. Although we shall not press new clause 4 to a Division this evening, I strongly suspect that we shall revert to it in another place.
The Minister spoke of a three-stage process for the technical approval board. The third stage was consulting with those who will be subject to the orders. That is all very splendid, but what if the dialogue, about which the Minister spoke so movingly, fails? What if the Government get it wrong? After all, Governments have been known to get it wrong. The Minister may have reservations about our proposed technical approval board, although Conservative Members and Liberal Democrat Members did not criticise it.
The technical approval board is the right way forward and the Minister needs to reconsider the matter. He will have to undertake the functions that would be delegated to a technical approval board; he said that in the original consultation document. I am glad that he is prepared to reconsider information from my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire and I hope that he will return to the subject.
We welcome the Government's change of heart on the order-making powers, which have worried the Opposition throughout the Bill's passage. However, the burdens that
the Bill imposes on individual providers remain a matter for discussion between the Government and those providers. The order, which is now subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, is general and permissive. The devil will indeed be in the detail.The Minister has underplayed the risk of undermining confidence in the e-commerce revolution in this country. He has failed to grasp the risk of discrimination--unintentional, I am sure--by the Government against individual service providers through the different burdens that technical requirements or costs place upon them.
I am unable to give the Minister the assurance that he sought. We shall press new clause 2 to a vote. If time permitted, we would have like to press other amendments in the group. New clause 2 is a surrogate for our remaining deep anxieties about the sad inadequacy of the Government's response.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:--
The House divided: Ayes 156, Noes 296.
AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Amess, David
Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baldry, Tony
Bell, Martin (Tatton)
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blunt, Crispin
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Brady, Graham
Brand, Dr Peter
Brazier, Julian
Breed, Colin
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burns, Simon
Burstow, Paul
Butterfill, John
Cable, Dr Vincent
Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies
(NE Fife)
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney
(Chipping Barnet)
Chidgey, David
Chope, Christopher
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh)
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth
(Rushcliffe)
Collins, Tim
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cotter, Brian
Cran, James
Cunningham, Ms Roseanna
(Perth)
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davies, Quentin (Grantham)
Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)
Day, Stephen
Duncan Smith, Iain
Evans, Nigel
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Fearn, Ronnie
Flight, Howard
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Foster, Don (Bath)
Fox, Dr Liam
Fraser, Christopher
Garnier, Edward
George, Andrew (St Ives)
Gibb, Nick
Gill, Christopher
Gorrie, Donald
Gray, James
Green, Damian
Greenway, John
Gummer, Rt Hon John
Hague, Rt Hon William
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Hammond, Philip
Hancock, Mike
Hawkins, Nick
Heald, Oliver
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, Rt Hon Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson Smith,
Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Kirkwood, Archy
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, Oliver
Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
McIntosh, Miss Anne
MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Madel, Sir David
Major, Rt Hon John
Malins, Humfrey
Maples, John
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian
May, Mrs Theresa
Moss, Malcolm
Nicholls, Patrick
Norman, Archie
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Öpik, Lembit
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Prior, David
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Laurence
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Rowe, Andrew (Faversham)
Ruffley, David
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
St Aubyn, Nick
Sanders, Adrian
Sayeed, Jonathan
Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spring, Richard
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Streeter, Gary
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Townend, John
Trend, Michael
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Waterson, Nigel
Webb, Steve
Wells, Bowen
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. John Randall and
Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown.
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Barnes, Harry
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret
Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)
Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)
Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Blunkett, Rt Hon David
Bradley, Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)
Browne, Desmond
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Butler, Mrs Christine
Caborn, Rt Hon Richard
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Cawsey, Ian
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cooper, Yvette
Corbett, Robin
Corston, Jean
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, David
Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Dalyell, Tam
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Davis, Rt Hon Terry
(B'ham Hodge H)
Dawson, Hilton
Denham, John
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Donohoe, Brian H
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, David
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Field, Rt Hon Frank
Fisher, Mark
Fitzsimons, Lorna
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Foulkes, George
Fyfe, Maria
Gapes, Mike
Gibson, Dr Ian
Gilroy, Mrs Linda
Godman, Dr Norman A
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hanson, David
Heal, Mrs Sylvia
Healey, John
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hill, Keith
Hinchliffe, David
Hoey, Kate
Hood, Jimmy
Hoon, Rt Hon Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, Alan (Newport E)
Howells, Dr Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Illsley, Eric
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)
Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Ms Jenny
(Wolverh'ton SW)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
Kumar, Dr Ashok
Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laxton, Bob
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Lock, David
McAvoy, Thomas
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McNamara, Kevin
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Maxton, John
Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Meale, Alan
Michael, Rt Hon Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Moran, Ms Margaret
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle
(B'ham Yardley)
Mountford, Kali
Mowlam, Rt Hon Marjorie
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Organ, Mrs Diana
Osborne, Ms Sandra
Palmer, Dr Nick
Pearson, Ian
Perham, Ms Linda
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris
Pope, Greg
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prescott, Rt Hon John
Primarolo, Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Rt Hon Ms Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Radice, Rt Hon Giles
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, Nick
Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Roy, Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Ryan, Ms Joan
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mohammad
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Snape, Peter
Soley, Clive
Squire, Ms Rachel
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr Howard
Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin
Straw, Rt Hon Jack
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
(Dewsbury)
Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Tynan, Bill
Vis, Dr Rudi
Ward, Ms Claire
Wareing, Robert N
Watts, David
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Rt Hon Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Winnick, David
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wray, James
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. David Jamieson and
Mr. Tony McNulty.
Question accordingly negatived.
New Clause 7
Failure to Comply with a Notice to Disclose a Key to Protected Information
'(1) A person is guilty of an offence if--
(a) with intent to impede access to protected information or the putting of that information into an intelligible form, he fails to comply in accordance with a section 46 notice with a requirement of that notice to disclose a key to protected information;
(b) there are reasonable grounds for believing that possession of the key is necessary to obtain access to the protected information or the putting of that information into an intelligible form; and
(c) he is a person who has, or who after the giving of the notice and before the time by which he was required to disclose the key, had possession of the key.
(2) A person is guilty of an offence if--
(a) he fails to comply in accordance with a section 46 notice with a requirement of that notice to disclose a key to protected information;
(b) there are reasonable grounds for believing that possession of the key is necessary to obtain access to the protected information or the putting of that information into an intelligible form;
(c) he a person--
(i) who has had possession of the key; and
(ii) who has, or who after the giving of the notice and before the time by which he was required to disclose the
(d) with intent to impede access to protected information or the putting of that information into an intelligible form, he did not before the time by which he was required to disclose the key, make a disclosure to the person to whom he was required to disclose the key of all such information in his possession which would (either on its own or in combination with other information) enable possession of the key to be obtained.
(3) In proceedings against any person for an offence under this section it shall be a defence for that person to show--
(a) in the case of an offence under subsection (1), that it was not reasonably practicable for him to make a disclosure of the key before the time by which he was required to do so;
(b) in the case of an offence under subsection (2), that it was not reasonably practicable for him, before the time by which he was required to disclose the key, to make such a disclosure as is mentioned in subsection 2(d); and
(c) where in either case it has since that time become reasonably practicable for him to make a disclosure of the key or of information which would (either on its own or in combination with other information) enable possession of the key to be obtained, he has made such a disclosure to the person to whom he was required to disclose the key.
(4) Except in a case where there is no authorisation for the purposes of section 47, in proceedings for an offence under this section a person shall have a defence under subsection (3) only if he also shows that it was not reasonably practicable for him to comply with the requirement in the manner allowed by that section.
(5) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable--
(a) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to a fine, or to both;
(b) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or to both.'.--[Mr. Simon Hughes.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
Motion made, and Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:--
The House divided: Ayes 25, Noes 293.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |