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Mr. Deputy Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but there is some device here which is making a noise. Can it please be silenced as quickly as possible? Madam Speaker has made it absolutely clear that this is quite improper. [Interruption.] I think that I have seen the source of it.
Mr. Foster: Before that brief interruption, I was saying that there was an opportunity to vote on the issue on Second Reading. The opportunity was not taken then, and we have it again today.
What I believe unites Members on both sides of the House is the wish to see changes in the arrangements for National Air Traffic Services. First, I think that everyone agrees that NATS should be separated from the Civil Aviation Authority. Secondly, I suspect that everyone will see that there are benefits to be gained from introducing into the operation of NATS expertise from the private sector, particularly in relation to management. Thirdly, I suspect that we all agree that there is an urgent need to find ways of enabling NATS to gain funds for future investment, preferably without such funds coming within the public sector borrowing requirement.
I believe that the House is united on those three points. The question therefore is: what is the most appropriate way of ensuring that NATS continues to operate as it does at present, as an organisation that has safety as its No. 1 priority? There are a number of ways of moving forward. The Government have proposed a part-privatisation model. The Conservative party has in the past proposed a complete privatisation model. The model that Liberal Democrats believe to be the most appropriate way in which to achieve the three key objectives to which I referred, and of ensuring that safety remains the paramount issue for the future of NATS, is by establishing an independent, publicly owned company. As we argued strongly in Committee, that particular model would enable the separation of NATS, the introduction of private sector expertise and the ability to raise funds, while ensuring that safety remained the key issue.
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The Government's proposals have attracted criticism from many quarters. The hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich has rightly referred to the work of the Transport Sub-Committee, which has issued three reports on this issue. On one occasion, the Committee had a majority of Conservative Members; on two occasions, there was a majority of Labour Members but, each time, the Committee came to the view that the most appropriate way forward was certainly not the one proposed by the Government.
The proposals have also been criticised by airline pilots; they should know--perhaps better than anybody else--about the issues. The British Air Line Pilots Association has been implacable in its opposition to
the Government's proposals. The national air traffic controllers, through their union, the Institution of Professionals, Managers and Specialists, have consistently and implacably opposed the proposals. The Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety is clearly opposed. I hope that there will be opposition from a large number of Government Back Benchers. The proposals certainly do not meet the requirements of the Conservatives nor the requirements and desires of the Liberal Democrats.On a free vote, there would be no chance whatever that the Government's proposals would go ahead. The hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich said that the matter was of such vital importance to the public at large that the whole House must decide on it. I very much hope that the Government will ensure that there is sufficient time to vote on new clauses 35, 36 and 37 and that the vast majority of Members on both sides of the House will vote for each of them.
Dr. Gavin Strang (Edinburgh, East and Musselburgh): Like the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster), I served on the Standing Committee. We are discussing hugely important issues. As he pointed out, the Liberal Democrat members of the Standing Committee supported a publicly owned corporation as an alternative to the Government's proposal. That is what new clause 35 would provide.
In her usual powerful and persuasive way, my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) argued that the new clause would meet some of the Government's concerns that the service should borrow directly in the private sector.
New clauses 35, 36 and 37 contain three separate propositions--I shall say a few words about each. New clause 35 deals with the independently owned public corporation. New clause 36 provides for the setting up of a trust along the lines of NAV Canada. Such a trust would include representatives of the airlines, the users, the customers, the trade unions and all who have an interest in the matter. If an independently owned public corporation is not acceptable to the Government, the trust would offer a way of meeting their objectives.
The third proposition--in new clause 37--is quite different. If the Government are not able to accept either of the other models--although I hope that they will accept one of them--surely, at the very minimum, they would agree that we must not take the privatisation route until the new centre at Swanwick and the new Scottish centre at Prestwick are operational.
Those are the three propositions before the House. If the Government are not able to accept them, it is vital--as my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich said--that the House is able to vote on each of them. It would be a travesty of democracy if we were not able to vote separately on each provision. I trust that there will be co-operation to do that.
My hon. Friend dealt with the models for an independent publicly owned company. Such a trust would achieve the Government's objectives because it would split NATS from the Civil Aviation Authority, and allow it to borrow in the private sector and--if the Government want this--to invest overseas. It would achieve all those objectives, so I hope that the Government will be able to accept one of the two models proposed.
If one of those models is not accepted, it is vital that, at the very least, the Government do not move towards privatisation before the Swanwick and Prestwick centres
are operational. However, I emphasise that I think that it would be a great mistake to go ahead with the partial privatisation.As we have been reminded, it was not just anyone but an all-party Select Committee that said that the option in the Bill was the worst of all possible options. Why has no other country in the European Union or the world privatised its air traffic control system? The prime reason, I suggest, is national security. Fortunately, the domestic civil security risk has not been great recently, but the risk of hijacks or bombs on civil planes remains. If the system is publicly owned, there will be better co-operation with the police and the security services than if it were run--this is what the Government intend--by a private commercial company.
The other aspect of national security is the military. The co-operation between National Air Traffic Services and the Royal Air Force is a model for the world. An international crisis could emerge and we might want to take complete control of our airspace. The Government might be clear that that is what they want to do, but control of the operation could remain with a foreign company. That is possible under the Government's proposals and the aims of that company in such a crisis might be different from those of the British Government. No other country in Europe has privatised its air traffic control system because of such national security considerations. To secure maximum co-operation with the security services, the police and the Ministry of Defence, it is best to retain the system in public ownership.
My hon. Friend powerfully made the case for the second model. Privatising the air traffic control system is not like privatising an airline. A privatised airline can provide additional services, improve in-flight catering and do all sorts of things to maximise the return on the capital deployed so as to obtain more private profit. Air traffic control is all about keeping planes apart, but a private company would want a greater return on the capital deployed--Ministers have said that that is the intention--and it would extract profit from the system for private shareholders. The worry is that the only way that it could achieve that is by driving down costs. In time, that could impact on our safety standards, which have been the highest in the world.
The Government have not persuaded the travelling public and many Labour Members and they have not persuaded the pilots or air traffic controllers. The key dialogue in air traffic control is that between the pilot and the air traffic controller, and the Government would make a great mistake if they proceeded with a policy that is opposed by airline pilots.
I urge the Government to reconsider and accept one of the alternative models--the independent publicly owned company or the not-for-profit trust.
Mr. David Chidgey (Eastleigh): I shall not detain the House long, but I wish to point out how much I agree with the views expressed by the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), who moved the new clause, and the right hon. Member for Edinburgh, East and Musselburgh (Dr. Strang). I was reminded very much of the previous Parliament in which I had the privilege of being the Liberal Democrats' spokesman on transport and
I sat on the Opposition Benches with Labour Opposition. Members on the Opposition Benches at that time were in total agreement that we should not sell off NATS, so it is strange that this Government now subscribe to the views of the previous Government. I find that rather sad. It is a shame that the Government have not found time to reassure the House by explaining why things have changed since they were in Opposition and since Labour made pledges at its annual conference. I accept that it is entitled to make pledges and that it is a part of politics to do so. However, why have the Government not told the House why things have changed and why it is not possible to maintain their pledges? Why is the organisation for sale when it was not previously? It is disreputable that the Government have not had the confidence to explain to us as a body why we should see the way forward from their point of view.I have always subscribed to the view that we should bring in the private concepts of an independent publicly operated company. That is a way of introducing the necessary cash flow and revenue. However, we have never seen the need to privatise the system merely to provide more money and to put the operation of National Air Traffic Services and safety at risk.
My final point is constituency based. Some Members may realise that the Euro centre at Swanwick is just over the border of my constituency. I am sure from correspondence that I have had with many of my constituents who work at the centre that they were not expecting to see such a policy. They are genuinely concerned about how they can maintain levels of safety in their work that keep airline operators and airline passengers confident within the proposed regime.
I am not raising party political points. Instead, I am referring to genuine concerns that are felt by people who are highly professional, highly trained and extremely responsible in what they do. I ask the Government to listen carefully to the views of that body of opinion, which has no political axe to grind. It merely wishes to continue to serve the public to the best of its ability.
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