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Jane Griffiths (Reading, East): It has been fascinating to listen to my constituency neighbour, the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), talking about punk Thatcherism, which may be an insult to punks and Thatcherites alike. Perhaps I am naive in these matters, but I cannot understand how an organisation that operates in the private sector, as NATS does, can be privatised and how we can describe the Government's proposals as privatisation. However, as the word has been bandied about, I shall let it go.
In an intervention, my hon. Friend the Member for South Derbyshire (Mr. Todd) referred to the number of airports in the private sector that are not part of NATS and asked whether he should be concerned. Other hon. Members said that as only small numbers of air movements were not controlled by NATS, it did not really matter. However, if one air movement at any airport was not conducted safely or was not subject to proper controls and that aircraft fell out of the sky, we should all be concerned.
Mrs. Dunwoody: As soon as any aircraft moves out of any airfield it is immediately taken over by an air traffic controller from the National Air Traffic Services who controls its flight wherever it goes.
Jane Griffiths: I understand that and I thank my hon. Friend. However, my point relates to the numbers. I have figures for 1998, the most recent year for which there are complete statistics, which show that some 22 million passengers were carried for at least half of their journey outside the control of NATS. That is a lot of people by anyone's understanding. Almost half the air traffic movements in that year were, at least partially, not under the control of NATS. There are airports all over the country where NATS does not operate. They are in or near the constituencies of many hon. Members on both sides of the House. However, I have never heard of an hon. Member going to one of those airports and saying to the people there, "It is a pity, but you are not quite as good as the boys and girls at Heathrow and Gatwick. You are a bit second class and it is not good enough."
Thinking about those matters leads me to seek reassurance from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. If all those people are working as air traffic controllers--and there may or may not be problems--will the new safety system that the Government propose for NATS affect the regulation of those operating outside NATS? Will it create more of a division? It does not seem to me that it will, but I should like some reassurance.
We have heard some dud logic today. Is safety an issue? Of course it is because safety is the product of air traffic control. Air traffic control exists to make the skies safe, but one cannot be a little bit safe. Either something is safe or it is not. It is like saying that one cannot be a little bit pregnant. Safety, however, can never be totally guaranteed no matter what system we have. There were horrendous rail crashes under British Rail and subsequently after privatisation.
Unsafe practice is bad practice, whether it happens in the private sector or the public sector. I am not ideological about it, and I do not believe that any right hon. or
hon. Member should be. We should all be concerned about moving into the 21st and 22nd centuries with good, safe, dynamic and vibrant air traffic control. So much in the Bill has not been discussed because we have been talking about air traffic control, which matters a lot. We should vote on the amendments as people's views are important, but it is a pity that the issue has overshadowed so many other good things that we are doing in transport. I shall not be supporting the amendments.
Mr. Dalyell: In his serious and thoughtful speech, my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, Central (Mr. Davies), who takes a different view, referred to some pilots sharing the general views of the Government. Like you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I travel every week between London and Scotland and on 17 occasions now--as will be borne out by the hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Mr. Moore) and others--I have sent my executive card or my diamond card to the captain to ask whether he is prepared to have a word about air traffic control. On every occasion the captain has said yes, other than when he is engaged in training. I have asked the following question: "Do you, captain, back up the views of the British Air Line Pilots Association?" and on every occasion the answer has been emphatically, "Yes. We think that Chris Darke and his colleagues are right and we are very deeply concerned." Senior captains of British Airways have used the word "dangerous". It is not my word--it is theirs.
Mr. Geraint Davies: May I make it clear that I said not that the british air line pilots association, Chris Darke and all pilots agreed with the Government's prescription, but that they agreed that a form of public-private partnership was the way forward? The debate is not about public-private partnership but the nature of corporate governance. The issue is whether the two converge. My hon. Friend will find that I am not disagreeing with what he says.
Mr. Dalyell: I am grateful for that correction.
Time presses, and I wish to ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State this question: why has he failed to persuade the pilots if his scheme is so watertight? They are serious people. Why is BALPA so opposed to it? We need an answer to that question.
Let me share one other thought. What will people in this country think of the House if we are seen to impose on controllers and pilots, against their best judgment, a scheme that they do not want? Heaven help us if there is a crash, let alone a mid-air crash. What would people think of the House of Commons doing that?
Mr. Pike: I am glad to have the opportunity of saying a few words in the debate. I speak as one who has not yet been convinced about which way to vote. We have not yet heard the Government's case. Although I have considerable sympathy with the new clauses, I have not been completely convinced that I should vote against the Government tonight. I have not yet voted against the Government, but they have still to convince me to go through the No Lobby.
My hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) spoke earlier in the debate. The reports of the Transport Sub-Committee of the Select Committee on the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs, of which my hon. Friend is the Chairman, have probably influenced my views on the issues more than the debate so far.
Obviously, safety must be paramount. I would not for a moment accuse my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions of not believing safety to be of the utmost importance. My hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Dr. Turner) spoke about having a choice of planes. If airlines are not safe, there is something sadly wrong with a system that allows planes into the air. I do not particularly want to be on the ground, whether I have a choice or not, if the plane above me is about to crash. That worries me.
On the forms of ownership, golden shares have become meaningless. Most of them were time-limited, and some have already lapsed, so that does not convince me. Share ownership for staff after privatisation has not been all that important. The worker-management buy-outs that took place in some sectors, which some of us strongly supported, ultimately sold out to Stagecoach, so that form of succession did not last very long.
When we compare what is offered by the Bill and what is offered by new clauses 35 and 36, there does not seem to be much difference when it comes to the public sector borrowing requirement. I understand the Government's attitude, as it would ensure that the necessary investment can be made. However, it is time that the Government found a way of financing capital requirements for Government and public spending as opposed to revenue expenditure, without merging the two. It is nonsense that the Government should not be able to borrow on the normal market for long-term finance without such borrowing being included in the PSBR. It is nonsense to make a judgment in the year in which the expenditure is incurred.
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The real difference is the cash that we will get for the shares--whether it will be 50 or 75 per cent. The Government do not need that money at this stage. The first tranche of money from the recent sale of the mobile phone network bands, which will be available over the next 20 years, is more than double what we will get for the sale of these shares. My right hon. Friend will argue that we need to spend money on hospitals and schools. However, I do not believe that the money from the sale of these shares is required.
I remain unconvinced of the Government's case. I ask my right hon. Friend, even at this late stage, to think again about these provisions and say that he is prepared to consider them before the Bill is dealt with in the other place. We still have time to find a compromise. New clauses 35 and 36 propose what I believe to be solutions that the Government should not totally reject.
Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde): I promise that I will be brief--I simply wish to make a couple of points.
I have signed the three new clauses. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions will give sympathetic consideration to the case put so eloquently by my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr (Ms Osborne). As my hon. Friend the Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith) rightly said, my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr has fought this campaign in a remarkably sustained and tireless way, quite unlike her predecessor, and she and her case deserve to be listened to.
In a debate such as this, which is largely, if not completely, confined to Labour contributions, I am reminded of the words of a retired deputy in Dail Eireann. He said that, as a Government Back Bencher, he always felt that, if he praised the Government, he would be accused of sycophancy by some, but if he had the temerity to criticise the Government, he would be accused of treachery by others.
I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends who have signed the new clauses will not accuse me of sycophancy when I say that my old friend the Deputy Prime Minister is utterly committed to the very highest safety standards. I first met him in the mid-1960s when he and I, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Hull, North (Mr. McNamara), fought campaigns to enhance the safety of merchant seamen and fishermen. So I have every confidence in my right hon. Friend--so does my family, which is made up of fishermen and their wives, daughters and sons--where maritime safety is concerned. For me--and, I am sure, for my family--that extends to his commitment to rail and air safety.
I will now be accused by some of treachery for saying that I have some criticisms of the Bill. I genuinely believe that the trust option offered in this civil-minded debate is the best way forward for the Government. I asked my right hon. Friend a question at a meeting, and then disappeared before he had the opportunity to answer it. I offer my apologies to him publicly for that, but I had visitors from Australia to see to. The question was: why are we out of kilter with so many other states? Some of those states have right-wing Governments, but all of them seem to believe that such services should remain public.
I have to be honest and point out that I am old, and thus old-fashioned enough to believe that some institutions, organisations, services and facilities should remain in the public domain. I believe that of the Prison Service and of NATS. I am happy to come out of the closet and say that, ideologically, it is better that some services and some resources are managed in the public interest by public servants--servants of the state. I shall not apologise for being old-fashioned in my views.
Furthermore, I have long opposed private finance initiatives and public-private partnerships for the building of schools and hospitals--I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith) is no longer in the Chamber. I have had to accept a PFI for the building of a service for geriatric patients in my constituency, but I have publicly voiced my opposition to private involvement in such an essential service.
I hope that my friendship with my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister will not be diminished, but philosophically and ideologically, I think that the Government are wrong. I say that with great reluctance because I have great respect for, and trust in, my right hon. Friend. All my hon. Friends who have spoken in favour of the new clauses have emphasised safety; they are right to do so. I do not take issue with those who support the Government, but safety measures should remain in the public domain. I shall always believe that. That is why I shall support the new clauses, even though they will not be accepted by the Government.
However, I do ask the Government to take heed of the powerful case eloquently presented by my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr. They must concede that case. I hope that my right hon. Friend will reconsider that and other issues.
As I am such an old-fashioned ideologue, perhaps it is just as well that I am not seeking reselection, but I hope that my right hon. Friend will listen to those who argue against him in this civil-minded debate.
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