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Mr. Prescott: I think that everyone will agree that this has been a good debate. It has reflected Members' real concerns about change and about the possibility of a public-private partnership, as set out in the Bill, for air navigation services. I welcome all the contributions that have been made to the debate. I have disagreed with some comments and agreed with others; that is inevitable on these occasions. The Government have some differences both with the official Opposition and with the opposition on the Government Benches, but I shall choose to direct myself to the Bill.
The hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin), who spoke from the Opposition Front Bench, talked about a wonderful privatisation programme, of which, as he readily said, the proposal before us is not a part. The history of selling the public assets of the United Kingdom is not something to recommend when dealing with further privatisations. In whatever area, privatisation cost the country billions of pounds. The assets sold off were undervalued, as the Public Accounts Committee has made clear. I would not want to put forward any privatisation proposals of that sort.
I am pleased, however, to support proposals that will allow the development of National Air Traffic Services and introduce measures to enhance air safety, at a time when the volume of air traffic is increasing extremely quickly. It has increased by about 20 per cent. in the past five years. This is clearly a growth industry in which safety is a major consideration, and I think that we all agree that there is a good safety record.
I shall take up some of my hon. Friends' comments about the commitment and promise that "Our skies are not for sale". We did not state in the Labour party's manifesto that there was a commitment to do this or not to do it, but it was said at the general election that after
the decision to take on two years of the financial programme of the previous Administration, the question had to be asked, "What about the privatisation to which the previous Government were committed?"We took the view that we would not privatise NATS but would pursue a public-private partnership. That was at the heart of the election, and the point was made by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. This is not something that we have sneaked into the House. There was debate, which is a matter of record. It is possible to read exactly what was said at the time.
The proposals that we are discussing are an important part of the Bill, which I am proud to endorse. The Bill will bring improvements to the railways, bus services, and local transport provision. Two key themes are improvements in public transport, which is once again a growth industry after decades of neglect, and an emphasis on the public and private sectors working together for the best overall solution.
Much of the debate, quite properly, has been about safety. I have spent much of my 30 years in the House--I am grateful for the comments that have been made in that regard--dealing with safety issues in all industries. That is a matter of record. Some of my efforts have been successful; others have been less successful. However, it would be most unusual for me to make a proposal that threatened the safety of air navigation. If that is not enough to convince the House, I shall explain why the proposal will make air navigation far safer. Nothing is more important to the Government, or to me personally, than safety in transport.
Everyone who has contributed to the debate, as well as the Select Committee on the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs, has made it clear that the status quo is not acceptable--that is, that the roles of the operator, which is now responsible both for regulation and for operation, should be separated. The Select Committee said that the status of the CAA with NATS as a subsidiary was not acceptable.
The Committee has been making that recommendation since the late 1980s. I agree with it, but I go further. The Government do not accept that the status quo is good enough for safety. There is a conflict of interest, and a change must be made, which is embodied in the Bill. We also consider that the status quo is not sufficient to meet the long-term investment needs of NATS, which will be the key to maintaining safety, better project management and the ability to grow.
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When we consider the safety record we see that there has been an increase in airprox near misses over the past 10 years. Near misses over those 10 years have increased by almost a third. That is alarming. However, there has been a tremendous growth in air traffic. A fair analysis of safety would mean setting the number of incidents against the growth of aeroplane passenger traffic.
Against that background, it is essential that the new technology and the two-centre approach, which the previous Administration announced, is introduced if we are to improve safety. Swanwick has been delayed for five years, it is £400 million or £500 million over budget and it has still not been implemented. Perhaps someone should have been concerned to ensure that the project was
properly financed and properly implemented. It might have played a part in reducing the number of airprox incidents that we are now seeing. The amount of money that is invested in safety is just as important as skills and equipment.The issue is whether NATS can secure sufficient long-term investment and handle it efficiently. I have examined the record, and it is my judgment that it has not done so. We must change that. In that context, the status quo is not satisfactory.
Dr. Jenny Tonge (Richmond Park): The Deputy Prime Minister has mentioned three times already that there has been a huge growth in air transport in this country. Does he agree that if terminal 5 is allowed to go ahead, there will be a huge growth in movements in and out of Heathrow?
Mr. Prescott: I have to deal with appeals on such planning issues, so I cannot make any comments now. The hon. Lady will have to wait until the report comes out.
There has been considerable debate about traffic using privately run or publicly NATS-controlled airports. The argument has not greatly benefited the House, but at the same time it has been a good debate. NATS controls much more air traffic than anyone else, whether in terms of movements or of numbers of passengers, but the fact that it is larger does not necessarily mean that it is safer.
Private sector companies, or non-NATS organisations, in Humberside, for example--the airport in my area--enable Concordes to land. Airbuses and jumbo jets land at Luton. Whether controllers are dealing with 10 or 400 people or with a jumbo or a small jet, I am sure that there is equal concern for safety. I think that that has emerged during the debate. The argument that private air traffic controllers are less safe than public controllers in NATS has been rejected.
It has not emerged from the debate that NATS bids for private contracts. Presumably it does so with a profit motive. The assumption that profit undermines safety is not proven. Our experience in visiting airports is that it does not. All the discussion in the world, and all the cockpits that my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) has visited, do not change that essential point. As for chats with pilots--I do not disagree with the idea that pilots are important people to take into account--I can recall pilots saying, "Don't privatise BAA; it will be less safe."
Mr. Redwood: Will the Deputy Prime Minister give way?
Mr. Prescott: Not now. I apologise. I am dealing with the real opposition.
When I was talking to a pilot about these matters, he admitted that safety had improved since the privatisation of BAA. I do not want to advance the argument that private is good and public is bad, or vice versa. I want to come to a judgment on whether we are introducing measures to make the industry safer.
The new clauses and amendments focus on whether a different company structure can achieve that objective. We have made it clear that we seek to introduce the public-private approach. New clauses 35 to 37 and new
clause 26 provide different options. Full privatisation is represented by new clause 26. My right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East and Musselburgh (Dr. Strang) seeks to retain a Companies Act company. The NAV Canada solution means that shares in the company cannot be sold, but there is a sale to a non-profit company. No shares are involved. So we are being offered a state corporation, a sort of trust corporation and the full privatisation that I have mentioned.I am confused when it comes to how Members will vote for all these propositions, unless it all amounts to a belt-and-braces job and, if they lose on the first one, they will move on to the next. I hope that they will not touch the third one.
The Government believe in a public-private partnership. That is not a privatised approach but it is a different form of the public-private approach. It involves shares in the private sector, and is a different form of the public-private partnership from the one that I have developed for the London underground. There are horses for courses. It is a different partnership from the one I have developed for the channel tunnel rail link, which I had to rescue from the terrible mess created by the previous Administration. All those measures involved £20 billion.
Those who said that the money would come from telecoms include, I think, my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Pike). However, that money has been spent at least five or six times already. Nobody needs to be convinced that Labour knows how to spend money; the difficulty is in pointing out where we raise the money that we spend. There is a history to that argument.
The £20 billion has been raised from an industry that has an income flow, which means that there is less pressure on the public sector to raise revenue or capital for hospitals and schools. The £500 million that would be raised from the sale of NATS is equivalent to putting a pound on pensions. Judgments must be made about public expenditure priorities and the Government will take such considerations into account in their public expenditure programmes.
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