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Dr. Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak): Do my right hon. Friend's comments about the lack of accountability of trust bodies apply to registered social landlords, to whom the Government propose to transfer council housing?
Mr. Prescott: There are all sorts of trusts, including hospital trusts. There are always problems to be
addressed. My point is that, while a trust body could raise the capital to make the necessary investment, it could not provide the sort of flexibility, management and efficiency that we want. Furthermore, I believe that the Government should have some control and that the industry should be accountable. We can argue about percentages--49 per cent., or whatever it might be--
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. It is a small matter in the circumstances, but would the right hon. Gentleman please face the Chair?
Mr. Prescott: I apologise, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
We do not accept that a public-private partnership would jeopardise safety. The airline operators told the Select Committee that the Government's proposals would enhance aviation safety and they stated why that was. People say that the airline operators would say that, but I cannot accept that the 13 major UK airline operators are indifferent to whether or not an aeroplane crashes, or to their safety record. To say that they are is silly and dangerous and undermines the very concept of safety.
Safety regulation will remain firmly in the public sector in a reformed Civil Aviation Authority. We shall ensure that we remain the safest providers of air traffic control services in the world. There was some doubt about whether such an approach would be effective, but the CAA is a public body and I thought that everyone accepted that safety should rest with a public body, not with the body that is responsible for operations. Therefore, the CAA has to do the job.
Safety is of paramount importance, which is why we have made it clear that the CAA is to set minimum standards. As my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, West (Mr. Salter) said, there are higher standards than those enforced by the CAA. However, we have made it clear that all the standards that currently apply will continue to do so. Furthermore, we have transferred safety from the operating body to the public body--the Select Committee asked for that major change and we have made it. We have done more, by making it absolutely clear to the companies involved they cannot provide air traffic control services unless the CAA safety regulation group is satisfied that they can do so safely.
The CAA will continue to conduct regular inspections and audits. The competence and medical fitness of all operators will be tested annually. Procedures and equipment used by controllers must be approved by the CAA, and it will control maximum working hours. A company will not be able to make controllers work longer, because their hours will continue to be controlled by regulation--nothing will change. Given the growth in the industry, it is likely that more air traffic controllers will be required in future. The point is that controllers cannot be made to work more hours. The type of equipment used will be set down in the licence and controlled by the CAA. Therefore, nothing changes in respect of controllers and their equipment.
We met trade union representatives and discussed all those matters. Let me make it clear: the unions did not endorse our proposal and I did not ask them to. However, we have adopted important safety measures, continued existing measures and then gone further, in response to
union concerns. Safety will be mentioned in the strategic partnership agreement; a NATS board director appointed by the Government will have specific responsibility for safety; and a safety monitoring committee will be established, chaired by a Government-appointed director. The safety management system that includes elements that exceed statutory minimum requirements will remain in place. The CAA's audit arrangements will be extended to ensure that there is an annual audit of safety management. Finally, training and development standards will be improved. Those are the safety concerns of people in the industry and we have met those concerns. I have not asked the unions to endorse the Government's proposal for a public-private partnership. However, the unions have endorsed those safety improvements.We have a gold-plated arrangement. First, we have separated the public safety regulator from the service operator, as everyone wants us to do. Secondly, we have strengthened the strategic partnership agreement and the articles of association. Thirdly, the Government will appoint to the board directors who have specific responsibility for safety. By any stretch of the imagination, those measures represent an improvement on current safety standards. I do not accept that safety will be weakened, even though we can argue about how far we should go to improve it. The Bill will ensure far better safety standards than I inherited and than were prevalent when I started with the public-private partnership.
Mr. Dalyell: Given my right hon. Friend's comments of the past five minutes, how come he has failed to persuade IPMS and BALPA?
Mr. Prescott: They were the ones that argued that BAA should not be privatised, saying that it would be less safe, but they changed their minds. I had to argue the Government's case for this PPP, but I listened carefully to workers and operators in the industry.
My hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (Dr. Godman) mentioned the fishing industry. When we tried to improve safety in that industry, those who opposed our measures most fiercely were the fishermen. They gave us all sorts of reasons why they did not believe in it--for example, that it would cost a lot more. However, on safety we have to do what is right. That is the obligation that I have accepted and I can live with its being unpopular, just as I can live with leaving a safer system than I inherited.
I have heard a lot of tosh about the public and private sectors. Do hon. Members feel less safe when they get on board a private-sector aeroplane than they did when British Airways was a public company? When that airline was publicly owned, did they choose it because they believed it was safe? Perhaps they are the sort of people who felt better on reading the old local authority notices that said, "This is a nuclear-free area." It is a load of nonsense--[Hon. Members: "Come over here."] The Conservatives invite me to cross the Floor, but I am just trying to make a point within the context of the amendments.
We have been told to remember Paddington, but I remember King's Cross and Clapham--public sector disasters. Safety was not better under the public sector in that industry. [Hon. Members: "Come on over."] I shall present the arguments and state our priorities as I think
best. I have heard a lot about safety, but no one has said anything about the safety improvements. A lot of tosh has been said about the public and private sectors; my response is to cite the example of the railways. I have never accepted "public good, private bad," or "private good, public bad." I believe that a balance has to be struck so that we can get the best from both, and a public-private partnership is designed to do exactly that. That is what the Bill will achieve.The Tories' alternative is privatisation--they have made that absolutely clear. They do not want there to be any control or accountability; they simply want to sell the operation for the best possible price. They are indifferent to the safety, efficiency or effectiveness of the industry. We utterly reject such an approach. We shall retain shares through the public-private partnership because we believe that that will provide one form of accountability. That accountability is also expressed in the articles of association, the strategic partnership agreement, a strict operating licence, the continuing Government and employee shareholding, and the appointment of Government directors with a veto in respect of key issues such as safety, major investment and national security.
As I have heard a bit about national security, I might add that the annual report of the Joint Air Navigation Services Council--the body that brings together the CAA, NATS and the Ministry of Defence--which has just come out, says of the Government's proposals:
- the Council believes they will preserve the successful civil/military relationship that currently exists between NATS and the MOD and ensure that air traffic services are sustained on a joint and integrated basis . . .
We have put into the Bill many checks and controls. I have made my points about safety. I believe that it is absolutely clear that we can enhance the safety of the system. I have made it clear that I accept amendment No. 454 tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr. That is right; we shall be writing the proposal into the Bill.
We said from the beginning that we would listen to what was said on the changes. Governments cannot be arrogant and ignore matters; they have to make their case in the House. We have made it clear from the beginning that the changes constitute a public-private partnership, and that the two-centre model may be written into the Bill--we have listened on that and accepted it. We have increased and enhanced safety, as requested by the trade unions, after months of negotiation.
All that makes for a good Bill. All that, in my mind, produces a public-private partnership that will meet the needs of the country and the investment requirements of civil aviation, which will be safer, more accountable and over which the Government will have considerable influence and control. Above all, that will provide safe and sustained investment. I commend the Bill to the House.
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