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Mr. Raynsford: They occur, as the hon. Member for Poole rightly recognises, in the Railways Act 1993, which was so often referred to in our Committee proceedings, and with which both hon. Gentlemen will be very familiar. The Secretary of State currently gives objectives, instructions and guidance to the franchising director under the powers contained in the 1993 Act. By contrast, the prime objectives of the Strategic Rail Authority are on the face of the Bill, while the direction and guidance power available to the Secretary of State is equivalent to that in the 1993 legislation. I hope, therefore, that Conservative Members will recognise that their amendments are not appropriate and should be withdrawn.
In conclusion, I shall briefly refer to the specific points raised by hon. Members. The hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale raised several issues. He specifically asked when we could expect to see the micro-franchising report. The answer is that it is due in June. I hope that that is a more specific response than that which the hon. Gentleman received in Committee: it is compatible with that response but more specific. We see no objection in principle to decentralised operation, which is, as the hon. Gentleman well knows, known as micro-franchising, but the shadow SRA will want to study the report and analyse the pros and cons of these options in detail.
The hon. Gentleman also asked how guidance to the SRA would be given to achieve the objectives of his amendments. There is no need to give guidance to secure the development of the network because, as I have said, that is already one of the three overarching objectives specified in the primary legislation.
The hon. Gentleman wanted to know the position in relation to land when local transport plans were outstanding. The rigorous process of consultation that we shall put in place will ensure that land with rail potential is identified. As I have explained, there will be no question of land with rail potential being disposed of. There is therefore no need to wait for local transport plans before decisions are taken.
The hon. Gentleman wanted to know the specific position in relation to Railtrack and the rail regulator protecting land disposal. I can confirm that the regulator is considering a new licence condition which, subject to consultation, would impose on Railtrack controls on the disposal of relevant assets, including land. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will feel comforted by that.
The hon. Member for Poole, in an admirably short speech, simply expressed concern about the role of the Secretary of State. I hope that I have made it clear that the Secretary of State has an important role, as he is responsible for the overall operation of railway policy and transport policy and is answerable to the House. I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman approved of the terms of clause 179(4), under which the Secretary of State must appoint people with considerable qualifications to positions in the Strategic Rail Authority.
The hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) started unhelpfully by complaining about the structure of the Bill. He said that it was four Bills in one. He obviously had not listened closely to his colleague the hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale, who completed his speech by congratulating the
Government on their objective of integration. Our proposals are a classic illustration of integration, so I cannot accept the point made by the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire.7.30 pm
I listened with concern and interest to the comments made by the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire about the problems created by the shortage and the inadequacy of the transport services in the area that he represents. I spent a few days in the vicinity of Kielder forest recently and I can entirely endorse his comments about the problems caused by large timber-carrying trucks on a road network that was simply not designed to cope with such pressures. I am equally aware that the local rail service closed in the 1960s. That was a sad loss to the area, in the same way as the loss of railways is a sad loss to other areas.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the opportunities that would encourage the carrying of timber by rail. We are keen to encourage rail freight when that is possible and when it is good value. The shadow SRA is working on the freight element of its strategy, covering vital issues of capacity, demand and investment. The details are still being developed, but the overall objective is more freight by rail. The SRA will bring together freight and strategic planning for the first time; we will make progress in that direction.
I have a great deal of sympathy for the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow) when he talks about the poor standard of service provided by the train operator, Connex SouthCentral, in his territory. My hon. Friend the Member for Streatham has similar experience of Connex SouthCentral, and Connex SouthEastern operates in my constituency, so I am not unaware of the complaints that are made by many constituents. I can only say in encouragement to the hon. Gentleman that the protests, which I was happy to convey to Connex, of many of my constituents--they used to get wet when they waited at Woolwich Arsenal station because of the inadequacy of the platform cover--have at last led to action being taken. I wish him well in his campaign to achieve similar results for his constituents who use Cheam station.
I hope that I have done justice to the points made in the debate and explained why the amendments are either unnecessary or undesirable. I urge the hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale to withdraw his amendment.
Mr. Moore: I am afraid that, despite the Minister's mastery of my constituency name, I shall have to disappoint him. He was untypically churlish in attacking my hon. Friend the Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) for his views on the Bill. The view has been expressed--not least by my hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr. Foster)--that the staples it contains are the only things integrating the Bill before us. It is a mammoth effort and we shall return to the points behind it on Third Reading.
We are unconvinced by the Minister's arguments about land sales and particularly about those on rural--
It being four hours after the commencement of proceedings on consideration of the Bill, Mr. Deputy Speaker, pursuant to Order [9 May], put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The House divided: Ayes 44, Noes 321.
AYES
Allan, Richard
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Baker, Norman
Ballard, Jackie
Beggs, Roy
Bell, Martin (Tatton)
Brand, Dr Peter
Breed, Colin
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burstow, Paul
Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies
(NE Fife)
Chidgey, David
Cotter, Brian
Davey, Edward
(Kingston)
Donaldson, Jeffrey
Fearn, Ronnie
Foster, Don (Bath)
George, Andrew (St Ives)
Hancock, Mike
Harris, Dr Evan
Harvey, Nick
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles
(Ross Skye & Inverness W)
Kirkwood, Archy
Livsey, Richard
Llwyd, Elfyn
Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Moore, Michael
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)
Oaten, Mark
Öpik, Lembit
Rendel, David
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Sanders, Adrian
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Stunell, Andrew
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thompson, William
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Tyler, Paul
Webb, Steve
Willis, Phil
Tellers for the Ayes:
Sir Robert Smith and
Mr. Tom Brake.
NOES
Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Barnes, Harry
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)
Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Blunkett, Rt Hon David
Boateng, Rt Hon Paul
Borrow, David
Bradley, Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brown, Rt Hon Gordon
(Dunfermline E)
Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Byers, Rt Hon Stephen
Caborn, Rt Hon Richard
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Cann, Jamie
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Church, Ms Judith
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Clark, Dr Lynda
(Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clwyd, Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Yvette
Corbett, Robin
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr Jack
(Copeland)
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, Rt Hon Alistair
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Davis, Rt Hon Terry
(B'ham Hodge H)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, John
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Donohoe, Brian H
Dowd, Jim
Drew, David
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Ennis, Jeff
Field, Rt Hon Frank
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Fyfe, Maria
Gapes, Mike
George, Bruce (Walsall S)
Gibson, Dr Ian
Gilroy, Mrs Linda
Godman, Dr Norman A
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Grogan, John
Gunnell, John
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hanson, David
Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet
Heal, Mrs Sylvia
Healey, John
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, Ms Patricia
Hill, Keith
Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, Ms Margaret
Hoey, Kate
Hoon, Rt Hon Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, Alan (Newport E)
Howells, Dr Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Illsley, Eric
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)
Johnson, Miss Melanie
(Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Jowell, Rt Hon Ms Tessa
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laxton, Bob
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Lock, David
Love, Andrew
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
Macdonald, Calum
McDonnell, John
McFall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Mrs Rosemary
McNamara, Kevin
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Mandelson, Rt Hon Peter
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Maxton, John
Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Michael, Rt Hon Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Mitchell, Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Moran, Ms Margaret
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle
(B'ham Yardley)
Morris, Rt Hon Sir John (Aberavon)
Mountford, Kali
Mowlam, Rt Hon Marjorie
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Hara, Eddie
Organ, Mrs Diana
Osborne, Ms Sandra
Palmer, Dr Nick
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris
Pope, Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prescott, Rt Hon John
Primarolo, Dawn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Rt Hon Ms Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Radice, Rt Hon Giles
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd
Raynsford, Nick
Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)
Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Roy, Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ryan, Ms Joan
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mohammad
Shipley, Ms Debra
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Singh, Marsha
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Snape, Peter
Southworth, Ms Helen
Spellar, John
Squire, Ms Rachel
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin
Straw, Rt Hon Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
(Dewsbury)
Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Tynan, Bill
Vaz, Keith
Ward, Ms Claire
Wareing, Robert N
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Rt Hon Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. David Jamieson and
Mr. David Clelland.
Question accordingly negatived.
Clause 200
Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex): I beg to move amendment No. 412, in page 113, line 4, leave out clause 200.
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