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Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst): Yes.
Angela Smith: The right hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that Doris Day has said how embarrassed she is when she looks back at her films to see how often she wore fur. She now campaigns against the breeding of animals for fur. I hope that that does not spoil the right hon. Gentleman's fantasies.
The Bill will ban fur farming--not just the keeping of mink, but the possibility of a return to arctic fox fur farming. It is a measure whose time has well and truly
come. It has been delayed for far too long, during which time more mink have suffered and been killed as a result of the actions of the House. This a modern, compassionate move that will be warmly welcomed across the country. It will have the support of the majority of Members of Parliament and of people outside the House.6.17 pm
Mr. Patrick Nicholls (Teignbridge): The Minister's speech deserves a wider audience. Let me save him at once from any embarrassment by saying that I did not mean that as a compliment. When I asked him to explain the moral distinction between farming for fur and farming for meat, bearing in mind that neither was essential to sustain life, he said, in effect--we will not have an argument about this, because Hansard will show what the Minister said and he will have to live with it--that the eating of meat was a majority habit, whereas the wearing of fur was a minority habit. Anybody with even the cursory knowledge of history that one might expect of a Labour Member of Parliament knows that parliamentary democracy developed in this country not by extinguishing minority rights, but by protecting them.
In contrast, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Garston (Maria Eagle) made a much better speech. I agree with her approach, although I disagree with some of her conclusions. The Bill is an animal welfare measure or it is nothing. If mink cannot be farmed humanely, that is the end of it, because the wearing of fur is not essential. In the same way, if animals raised for meat could not be farmed humanely, that would be the end of it.
Had the Government argued that there was nothing wrong per se with the farming of mink, any more than there is anything wrong per se with the farming of animals for meat, but that they wanted standards greatly improved, we could have understood. That would have enabled us to look at the issues in more detail. We hear stories about how mink are in deep distress when they are being farmed. Like the hon. Lady, I took the trouble to go to a mink farm. I deliberately went to the best one that I could find, because I wanted to see what could be achieved when the best was being adhered to. I saw animals that could be handled and were not in deep distress. They were no worse to handle than a ferret. They appeared to be content with their captivity. The argument that an animal cannot be domesticated in 70 generations is supported by the fact that when they go back to the wild, they adapt, but so will an ordinary domestic cat if it is entire when it goes back to the wild.
We need to get into the detail of that. If the Government had examined the issue and decided that higher standards were necessary, even if those standards put fur farmers out of business, I would have said "So be it". If humane conditions cannot be achieved, the practice should stop.
I really do wonder when I hear people talk about the fact that prosecutions take place and say that that is justification for abolishing the industry. The point has already been made that the convictions under the present legislation show that it is up to the job. If we need enhanced legislation, let us have it, but that is not the argument that has been made.
The Bill will have another practical consequence. At the moment, when Ministers go to meetings in Europe they can talk about the conditions in which mink farming
takes place in the EU. They have a contribution to make. If Ministers simply say that we have abandoned mink farming, what standing will they have in the EU to discuss the subject? We should aim for higher standards, here and abroad.The real motivation behind the Bill has been revealed time and again this evening--although not by the hon. Member for Garston, because she learned the lessons of her first attempt--and just a moment ago, the hon. Member for Basildon (Angela Smith) offered us her views on fashion to justify banning a legal activity. The hon. Member for City of Durham (Mr. Steinberg) had the naive gall to say that he found the wearing of fur pretentious. I find a group of new Labour glitterati wearing ill-fitting but expensive Armani suits unbelievably pretentious, but that is no reason for abolishing them. When the argument is reduced to that level, it is easier to understand the motivation.
The Bill is an animal welfare measure. We should have been listening tonight to an argument that justified the Bill because mink cannot be farmed humanely in any way. Instead, we have heard a load of guff about some convictions that, it is claimed, have contaminated the whole industry. Every now and again, the seeping class prejudice leaks out from Labour Members to try to justify this thoroughly illiberal measure. If the cause of animal welfare had to depend on that analysis, God help the animal kingdom, because this Government will not.
6.22 pm
Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire): I hold no candle for the fur farming industry. There is none in my constituency, my wife owns no fur and, indeed, I own no fur, although I wish that I was rich enough to do so. I would happily do so if I could afford it. However, I am concerned by the fundamental illogicality of the Bill and the worrying principle that lies behind it.
I would understand it--although I would disagree--if the Government said that they believed the wearing, trading, farming and production of fur was immoral, wicked and distasteful, and that they intended to ban it. That would be a logical position, and indeed that is what many animal welfare activists would like the Government to do. The activists think that the wearing of fur is disgraceful and they are prepared to slash people's fur coats to prove it. They want the selling and farming of fur to be banned. That is a logical position, but not one with which I agree.
It would be equally logical to argue that the standards of welfare on fur farms should be raised to an acceptable level. If that cannot be done, as Labour Members have argued, the industry will disappear, not only here but in all those countries with which we have trade relations. However, there are 1,200 mink farms in the USA, which operate in the same way as ours. The US industry has 1,400 retailers, which turn over £1.5 billion a year. The United Kingdom trades 40 per cent. to 50 per cent. of the world's fur in London. It would be logical if the Government were trying to ban the trade, but they do not propose to do so. It will be legal for me to buy mink pelts in Calais and to sell them to retailers in this country and abroad. That is the first fundamental illogicality in the Bill.
The second was highlighted by the case of a farmer in Austria. He took the compensation offered by the Austrian Government for closing down his farm, and moved it
some two miles down the road to the Czech Republic. He still uses the same cages, animal welfare methods and production method as before. In the same way, the effect of the Bill will be to export the animal welfare considerations about which the hon. Member for Liverpool, Garston (Maria Eagle) and others are so concerned. We will have high standards of animal welfare here, but what about the situation in Mongolia, which I visited recently with the Inter-Parliamentary Union? That is where most of the fur comes from. What about the situation in Russia, China, the US, France, Germany and Ireland?
Maria Eagle: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman realises that we legislate for this country, not for Russia and Mongolia.
Mr. Gray: The hon. Lady is right, and I said the same thing when we legislated on pig stalls and tethers. We have put our pig industry out of business, but in Calais they use the methods that we are banned from using and export pork to this country. That is what will happen under this Bill.
Mr. Gordon Marsden (Blackpool, South): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Gray: I shall not give way to the hon. Gentleman, because he strolled into the Chamber at a late hour, presumably to try to get a mention in his local paper. We will export to Calais the animal welfare controls that we should have here. We should argue for high animal welfare standards for mink farms before the world, but just to ban fur farming here is as logical as the socialist borough of Islington going to some length to ban fox hunting in the borough. There has been no fox hunting in Islington for 300 years, but the socialists on the council wished to ban it for politically correct reasons. The Bill is equally politically correct.
The Bill will not improve the lives of mink anywhere in the world. It will not improve animal welfare standards at all. It will put a few people out of business, but it will not reduce the amount of mink sold in the world. I would not mind if there were no mink farms in the UK, but the Bill will not do what Labour Members want it to do. All they are interested in is the opportunity for some politically correct posturing. They can say, "We are brave animal welfare activists and we are going to ban 13 unfortunate farmers from making a living." However, hundreds of millions of pounds worth of fur will still be traded in London. Fur will still be worn here. We will still be able to buy fur from Mr. Al Fayed in Harrods. It will still be legal for hon. Members to wear fur coats in the Chamber, if they wish to do so.
All the Bill will do is ban the farming of fur, but it will still go on 22 miles across the channel and everywhere else in the world. That is illogical and illiberal. We are taking a politically correct, holier-than-thou stance. I mentioned earlier the issue of cruelty to pet dogs, but the hon. Member for City of Durham, who is no longer in his place, misunderstood my point. Some people are cruel to their pet dogs, and it is important that we have legislation to prevent that and under which we can prosecute the perpetrators. However, we do not say that because some people are cruel to their pet dogs we will
ban the ownership of pet dogs. The Bill is the equivalent of that, and I shall seek to oppose it in the Lobby this evening.
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