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6.40 pm
Mr. Moss: We have had a good debate on the issue, although we have covered much of the ground that was covered before in the Standing Committee considering the previous private Member's Bill. Without question, the argument has been won on this side of the House.
The Minister sought to justify the Bill on the basis of public morality, but I do not remember one other person supporting him on that basis. Most Labour Members returned to the old arguments of animal welfare. There is no question but that Conservative Members would support animal welfare provisions to improve the lot of mink on mink farms. The Government are not bringing forward legislation to provide for that, however--no, they are going the whole hog and imposing a ban.
As I said in my opening remarks, the proposed ban has no roots, that we can see, in European legislation. It was wrong for some hon. Members to refer to other countries having introduced a ban. Switzerland is not a European Union member, so that is irrelevant. Austria may have implemented the ban before it became a member and regional bans are not the same as a national ban.
The ban must have proper legal underpinning. We have already had submissions from other European Union countries that are going to take the matter to the highest court in Europe. It is likely, based on the legal advice that I and other right hon. and hon. Members have received, that the Government will find themselves with egg on their face. They will be forced on to retreat because they have not done their homework on the legal process.
Mr. Moss: The Minister says "Not true" from a sedentary position, but he gave the House no justification of the legal basis for his public morality position. I submit that when this comes before the European Court of Justice, based on current EU legislation, this legislation will not reach the statute book. We will have a free vote on the Bill this evening, but our opposition to the Government is deeply felt, and we want the Minister to justify his stance in Committee.
6.43 pm
Mr. Morley: Some good points have been made in the debate, as well as some poor ones. I will address the more reasonable questions raised by right hon. and hon. Members on detailed aspects of the Bill.
The hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss) spoke about compatibility with European Union law. I repeat that the Government are confident that the Bill is compatible with EU law, and we have taken the appropriate advice on that. The hon. Gentleman was quoting from EU law that is not relevant to this legal point. We are talking about morality, but he was talking about EU law on welfare. The Bill deals not with animal welfare standards but the wider question of public morality. Directive 98/58/EC, which he quoted, is about welfare standards, and the legal opinion quoted is
therefore not relevant to the Bill. On proportionality, if the aim is to stop the breeding of animals for fur, no less proportionate response could be introduced. I cannot see any element of discrimination on the ground of nationality in the way in which this is being applied as a United Kingdom measure.The hon. Member for Lewes (Mr. Baker) said that a number of countries had taken action on fur farming. In answer to his question, I am not aware of any challenge taken against those countries.
My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Garston (Maria Eagle) spoke eloquently on a range of aspects in relation to fur farming. She argued her case very well, as did my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Mr. Steinberg). He made a sophisticated speech and dealt well with interventions--indeed, his rebuffs were devastating.
The hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Hunter) put forward some quite strange arguments. If I understood him correctly, he was arguing that the Government cannot get involved in any issue of morality, and should have no role in introducing legislation on matters of morality. I do not know how that attitude squares with issues such as paedophiles and pornography. They are issues of morality on which the Government have a view in relation to protecting public morality and responding to the views of the people who put them forward. That argument was entirely spurious and should be rejected.
The hon. Member for Teignbridge (Mr. Nicholls), who is not in the Chamber at the moment, spoke about visiting fur farms. Well documented research on fur farms demonstrates that welfare issues need to be dealt with. The Government are arguing for a ban on the basis of public morality, but in my opening remarks I outlined a range of issues that are a part of public morality, including welfare, the effect on the environment and the cost of dealing with escapes. Many other issues are part of the wider issue of public morality, which is the overriding argument for banning fur farming.
The hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson) made a number of perfectly reasonable points on behalf of his constituent. I acknowledge that right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House represent fur farmers. We must address the question of compensation, and how it will apply. During the process of my hon. Friend's private Member's Bill, we discussed these issues with the National Farmers Union and with individual Members of Parliament who contacted me to talk about their constituents, which is a proper democratic function of the House. I argued in Committee that we ought to take into account the issues raised in amendments. My hon. Friend worked very hard to bring together the different sides on this matter.
The Government are committed to bringing forward the Bill; it was outlined as a pre-election pledge on animal welfare. We have delivered on the majority of our pledges. Our policies on fur farming were published long before the donation from the political animal lobby was given. The political animal lobby decided that it would donate to the Labour party because it believed that the Labour party had the best policies on animal welfare and was committed to implementing them. The lobby was quite right in that respect.
As part of discussions that my hon. Friend had with the NFU, changes to the Bill were made in Committee. The hon. Member for Hexham, who served on the Committee,
will be aware of that. In the course of that Bill's progress, I gave some clarification on the details of compensation and of the issues that we would take into account such as the costs of demolition and legal advice that fur farmers may have to take. Every assurance that I gave on behalf of the Government to the NFU through the offices of my hon. Friend has been incorporated in the Bill. I have stuck to every assurance that I gave in Committee, even though this is now a Government Bill and we are not obliged to incorporate everything that was discussed in the Committee considering my hon. Friend's private Member's Bill. Nevertheless, we have stuck to our principles. Where we gave assurances, they have been written into this Bill.I am a little disappointed in the NFU's response. I do not think that its representatives kept to the spirit of what they said to me in the course of those discussions. While it is certainly true that the NFU is not in favour of the Bill--I have never claimed that it was--it made it clear to me that because of the interests of its members, it is not opposed to the Bill progressing. Even in the brief quoted by hon. Members, which I have read, the NFU does not call for a vote against the Bill or say that it wants to stop the Bill.
Many of the fur farmers are having a difficult time financially. The Bill gives them an opportunity to exit from the industry with some compensation. A great many of them would depart anyway without that financial support. It seems hard-nosed of Opposition Members to imply that we should set standards that would bankrupt fur farms rather than dealing with them as reasonably as we are.
Dr. Peter Brand (Isle of Wight): Is it not in everyone's interest that the trade should cease as soon as possible because of the uncertainty and risks involved? Does the Minister intend that compensation may be made available before January 2003, or does he hope that a war of attrition will make constituents such as mine give up before it is available?
Mr. Morley: I can reassure the hon. Gentleman on that. Any fur farmer who chooses to leave the business before the date on which the Bill is enacted will find compensation available as part of its second stage.
The hon. Member for Hexham asked why we had not begun consultation with the affected fur farmers about the details of the scheme, and the answer simply is that there cannot be detailed discussions on compensation before the statutory consultation period, which may substantially change the nature of the compensation.
The Bill is an enabling measure, putting in place powers to make the compensation scheme. Consultation will take place on the nature of the scheme and the income lost. It is difficult to specify great detail about compensation at this stage. Some wild claims have been made about the compensation required, and it would be wrong of the Government to paint ourselves into a corner before we have considered the implications and the way in which compensation would be calculated. As soon as the enabling powers have been enacted and the consultation period begun, we will arrange for accountants to talk with individual fur farmers about income and profits. Then we can consider the nature of the scheme.
I have no doubt that there is wide public support for a measure of this kind. Public morality comes into that, and we are taking account of the views of the public. We have consulted a wide range of professional and welfare organisations to ascertain their views. We received 88 responses, only two of which were in favour of retaining fur farming. All the others, some from organisations that represent many people, made it clear that the most appropriate way forward was a Bill banning fur farming. That is what we have done.
We have made our intentions clear. We have been questioned about the morality of our approach. Morality is important when it comes to the treatment of animals. I shall repeat our view on the morality of fur farming. Fur farming is not consistent with a proper value and respect for animal life. Animal life should not be destroyed in the absence of a sufficient justification in terms of public benefit. Nor should animals be bred for such destruction in the absence of sufficient justification. That is the essence of our argument for applying morality to a Bill of this kind, and for justifying it under article 30 of the EU regulations. We are entirely entitled to do that, and the advice to the Government is that we are within our rights. We are confident that our measures are fully compatible with human rights legislation and the requirements of the single market.
Some Conservative Members have argued that the Government must justify the application of morality. I have done so. However, those Members should justify their argument that this is not an issue of morality. They should consider that animals are kept in intensive conditions, in cages. We know that there are issues of poor welfare. Some animals are being kept simply so that their skins can be removed from their backs to make clothes for which there are many alternatives.
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