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Mr. Mandelson: Arguably, yes. That is why I am taking this action this evening. It is not for me to rehearse
arguments that are better put by those who believe in them--notably Sinn Fein Ministers and members of the Executive. The argument that they would put to the hon. Gentleman, if they were here, is that the Good Friday agreement also enshrines respect for the identities, the ethos and the traditions of all in the community; and that they should not be forced to accept and to fly the flag--the chief emblem or symbol--of somebody else's tradition.
Rev. Ian Paisley (North Antrim): Will the Secretary of State give way?
Mr. Robert McCartney (North Down): Will the Secretary of State give way?
Mr. Mandelson: If hon. Members do not mind, I should like to make a little progress.
Notwithstanding the argument that those Ministers and members of the Executive would put to hon. Members if they were here, the Union flag remains the flag of the United Kingdom, of which Northern Ireland is a constituent part and, while that is the wish of the majority of its people, the flag will continue to fly over Northern Ireland.
As I said, this matter is best resolved by the Executive. If it were possible to reach a collective view and to move by consensus, I should welcome that. An initial attempt was made during the early stages of the Executive.
However, I do not want to see the Executive consumed for weeks and months by shadow boxing over an essentially symbolic issue. I want to see the Executive build up a sense of common collective purpose and approach to the business of governing Northern Ireland in the interests of all the people of Northern Ireland.
Therefore, the draft order provides me with a reserve power to set regulations on flag flying from Government buildings. I shall use this reserve power only if it becomes clear that the Executive is unable to agree a way forward and the issue is becoming a palpable source of division among its members.
Rev. Ian Paisley: On parity of esteem, does the Secretary of State believe, in this instance, what the negotiator of IRA-Sinn Fein told the people of Northern Ireland last night on television? He said that the two flags must fly and that that was the only way that there could be parity of esteem. He said that the tricolour must fly beside the Union flag on these buildings.
Mr. Mandelson: The negotiator said that as an act of generosity, but it is not a view that I accept and it is not my definition of parity of esteem.
Moreover, if I believe that it is best to exercise the reserve power, I shall exercise it in consultation with the Assembly and the Executive. The draft order requires me to consult the Assembly on any regulations that I may be minded to make, and to take into account any views it reports to me on those regulations. It also requires me to have regard to the provisions of the Good Friday agreement and it requires any regulations to be approved in both Houses of Parliament.
Mr. Robert McCartney: If Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom and if, as the Secretary of State suggests, the same regulations on flying the flag as apply in the rest of the United Kingdom should properly apply in Northern Ireland, why cannot the matter be solved by simply stating that instead of through the process of consultation?
Mr. Mandelson: The hon. and learned Gentleman will acknowledge and accept that, at the moment, this is a devolved matter. I do not want to go simply crashing into the situation; I want to show respect for the principles of devolution that the House has previously debated and agreed. All that I am doing at this stage is asking the House to agree a draft order that will enable me to bring forward regulations to regulate these matters if local parties, local politicians and Ministers are simply unable to reach agreement among themselves on the best way forward. That would surely be the preferable and the ideal course for them to take. However, as I say, if they cannot do that, I do not want to sit back powerless, watching a not unimportant but ultimately symbolic issue continuing to divide the Executive and pulling apart what might otherwise be a potentially consensual approach on other matters in the Assembly. Bigger and greater matters, other than the flying of the Union flag, are of direct relevance to the people of Northern Ireland and they are there for the Executive and Assembly to trouble themselves with.
Rev. Martin Smyth (Belfast, South): I accept the Secretary of State's point that there are other important issues, but surely this is the constitutional issue of the flag of the nation flying throughout the nation and throughout the kingdom wherever that may be. It is not a devolved issue for Northern Ireland, but one that affects the kingdom as a whole.
Mr. Mandelson: At the moment--and until the House agrees the draft order--it is a devolved matter.
Rev. Martin Smyth indicated dissent.
Mr. Mandelson: It is a devolved matter and it also has very great constitutional implications not just for Northern Ireland, but--I readily accept--for the United Kingdom as whole. Therefore, it is not unreasonable that the House should address itself in the way that it is doing to the draft order that I am asking it to agree.
Mr. Michael Howard (Folkestone and Hythe): If the Secretary of State exercised his powers in the order only in accordance with the unequivocal undertakings that he has given to the House--for example, to my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth)--this evening, would it not follow that the consultation exercise, which is provided for in the order, would be a sham? Indeed, does it not mean that the Secretary of State would be rendering himself vulnerable to judicial review? [Interruption.] I should be very happy to give him the benefit of my experience.
Would not it be far better to avoid any such difficulties and for the Secretary of State to act on the suggestion that was just made to him? He should give effect to those unequivocal undertakings in this order and provide that in the event that the Executive Committee is unable to reach
agreement, the Union flag will fly on Government buildings in Northern Ireland as it does in the rest of the United Kingdom.
Mr. Mandelson: Obviously, I defer to the right hon. and learned Gentleman's experience of judicial review, which is superior to mine. [Hon. Members: "So far."] Indeed, so far. Every day that I have woken up in Northern Ireland, I have been exposed to the perils of judicial review. The situation is not quite as simple as the right hon. and learned Gentleman says because the prescribed days for flying the national flag can change from year to year.
There is another flag that some might want to fly in Northern Ireland; indeed, it was recently flown from the Parliament buildings. I do not want to provoke the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but I refer to the flag of the European Union. The flying of all sorts of flags has to be regulated.
I hope that a common-sense arrangement, respecting the principles of the Good Friday agreement--and I mean all the principles--can be arrived at.
Mr. William Cash (Stone): Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Mandelson: No. Many other hon. Members want to participate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin): Order. The Secretary of State is not giving way.
Mr. Mandelson: As I was saying before I was nearly so rudely interrupted, I think that it is possible--
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Only one Member can address the House at a time. The Secretary of State is trying to make a speech.
Mr. Mandelson: With reasonable good will on the part of all members of the Executive--
Mr. Cash: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Mandelson: No, I have made it absolutely clear that I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The Secretary of State has made it clear that he is not giving way. I can hear what the right hon. Gentleman is saying, so the hon. Gentleman should also be able to hear him.
Mr. Cash: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I hope that the hon. Gentleman--
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman should sit down while I am addressing the House. I hope that he is not going to make a bogus point of order because he has been unable to intervene.
Mr. Cash: My point of order is simple, Mr. Deputy Speaker. If I may say so, the Secretary of State is misleading the House with respect to an important point about the Belfast--
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