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12.19 am
Mr. Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire): It is not surprising that we are keeping the flag flying on decommissioning at such a late hour. We always seem to discuss such issues after midnight. However, consideration of the order is a source of encouragement, not least because of the statements that have come directly from the IRA. That is so significant. We are finally getting statements from the people who are in a position to fulfil the commitment to decommissioning. The quotation that was read out by the Minister, stating:
- the IRA leadership will initiate a process that will completely and verifiably put IRA arms beyond use
We welcome the order and congratulate the two Governments, as well as the political parties in Northern Ireland, on the progress made, particularly in the past couple of weeks. I especially welcome the statement from the IRA about putting the arms beyond use, because it is becoming less conditional. That is a significant step forward. In some ways, the IRA is moving in directions in which it seemed reluctant to move in 1999. It seems to be a firm commitment.
As the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. McFall) said, Martin McGuinness's statement on the "Jonathan Dimbleby" programme gives the indication that regardless of what else happens and what blockages occur, the IRA is serious about playing its part in the peace process.
It is good to welcome the former Secretary General of the African National Congress, Cyril Ramaphosa, and the former President of Finland, Martti Ahtisaari, to Northern Ireland. It is significant that that process is independent and that they will report to the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning.
The order is a little more realistic than the one that was passed in February. Given the amount of armaments involved, it will take time to put them beyond use, and considerable time to inspect the arms dumps and determine that they are secure.
Mr. Roy Beggs (East Antrim): I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Does he not recognise that only the possibility of three dumps being supervised is on offer? We do not know how much will be in them, but many more will be unsupervised and accessible to the other elements that have broken away from the IRA to carry on their terrible deeds.
Mr. Öpik: I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman is correct. There is always a level of risk. One of the crucial
points made in the earlier debate is that the risk must be balanced. There is no such thing as certainty in politics. At some point, one must say that the risk is sufficiently low to justify some degree of good faith from us in the Chamber.All of us must make our call on whether the level of risk is sufficiently low to justify that faith. For me and for the Liberal Democrats and, I guess, for the Government, the risk is sufficiently small to justify our proceeding at this stage. History will prove us right or wrong. I believe that the greatest crime would be to impose barriers of uncertainty--barriers based on an assumption of failure. The Secretary of State has said many times that he does not plan for failure; he plans for success. This is one of the occasions when we must translate those words into action, which in my view means encouraging the process in Northern Ireland to go forward in the way that the order facilitates.
Most importantly, we must reciprocate the strong and clear statement expressed directly by the IRA that it does not intend to be a barrier to the peace process henceforth. That is a matter not of principle, but of judgment. My judgment is that we probably have enough assurances to take the IRA seriously.
On a related point, if only some dumps are inspected, the IRA and the splinter groups will have access to weapons. We have always known that. Even if every gun and bomb was decommissioned tomorrow, they could always buy more. Just as we all accepted that the previous order was based entirely on the importance of symbolism, which is strongly felt, it is incumbent on us to recognise that this order is based on symbolism as well, though obviously it relates to weapons rather than to flags.
Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West): Does the hon. Gentleman accept that we are discussing more than symbolism? We are considering reality. Arms in a dump, however often it is inspected, can potentially be used at some stage. A weapon therefore continues to be held over democratic politics. Such dumps are, in some sense, a form of blackmail.
Mr. Öpik: Perhaps in some sense, but that is a melodramatic interpretation of a rather stable situation. The hon. Gentleman is entitled to believe that the risk is too great to support the order, but I hope that most hon. Members are satisfied that the clear, unequivocal statements of the IRA are genuine and can be accepted.
In a recent debate on Northern Ireland, I said that our discussions, comments and decisions in the House are not passive; they directly influence the process. If we take the right action here, the right outcome is more likely.
The process is about arresting not those who hold guns, but violence. We have held that debate on previous occasions when we discussed the amnesty. We are beginning to progress from a rather narrow definition of decommissioning to a more balanced and reasonable definition of deactivation. It is not decommissioning that matters, but the fact that the guns and bombs are no longer used.
It is important that people do not get killed for a cause in Northern Ireland. That can be achieved now; violence can be replaced by political debate. I believe that if we approve the order tonight, we effectively rubber-stamp another year of peace in the Province.
12.27 am
Mr. Ken Maginnis (Fermanagh and South Tyrone): The hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. McFall) said that decommissioning had been a troublesome word in the past five years. It is troublesome because decommissioning, or disarmament, has not been achieved, not because the need for it and its verification does not exist. I am pleased that the decommissioning commission, headed by General de Chastelain and his two colleagues, will be kept in place for a further year. That is important for several reasons.
First, whether or not we want to make perverse political points, it is generally acknowledged that the IRA had no intention of rolling over, putting its feet and arms in the air and allowing us to tickle its belly. It intended to maintain its stance of "not a single rusty bullet" for as long as it was viable in its terms. However, over the years that we have worked to move Northern Ireland to more peaceful times and to create a democratic process, with which Northern Irish society can identify, there has been a general realisation--it has not totally gripped the IRA or loyalist paramilitaries--that illegal guns and organisations cannot exist side by side with true democracy and peace. That is the crux of the matter.
Whether it is acknowledged or not, we have been assisted by the national and international reiteration of that point of view. It is all very well to be sceptical about a president here, a past president there or a general somewhere else, but that reiteration has had an overall impact throughout the island of Ireland. People have come to the point of view that we advocated five, six, seven or eight years ago: disarmament and the verification of that process have to take place.
I shall not be terribly disturbed if somebody plucks a euphemism from the air and puts it in place of my term--disarmament--and my requirement for verification, nor shall I worry about what term is used. I shall not worry as long as the process moves forward. I have an expectation that arises from the unique statement by P. O'Neill, although I do not know whether I am right to do so. Perhaps the Secretary of State or the Minister can tell me. The IRA referred not to some of its arms, but to "our" arms. I expect that to mean all its arms--[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) makes a remark from a sedentary position. I shall give way if he wishes.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield): If the hon. Gentleman believes that the IRA will make all its arms available for inspection, he is living in cloud cuckoo land. I did use another word, which was fool.
Mr. Maginnis: The hon. Gentleman abuses me, but I shall not react to that. Some people probably considered me to be a fool during the years in which I put on a uniform and faced up to terrorists. Perhaps people such as me were also considered to be fools because we faced up to the reality of death for the benefit of society, our children and their future.
I was referring not to what I believe the IRA will do, but to what I would expect it to do on the basis of the statement. I expect--I require, if that pleases the hon. Member for Macclesfield more--"our" arms to mean all its arms. Mr. Ahtisaari and Mr. Ramaphosa must be able to inspect the dumps in which those arms lay. The fact that P. O' Neill has drawn those two people into the
equation leaves the IRA open to criticism. Let us forget its terrorism for a moment. The whole raison d'etre of its members as republicans--people with a political aspiration--would be held up to international ridicule if this step forward, and it is only a step, was seen to be a cod or a deceit. By continuing the international commission's work, the House will say that, ultimately, we require nothing short of decommissioning, or disarmament as I like to call it.If the interim confidence-building measure is to have any meaning for us, Mr. Ahtisaari and Mr. Ramaphosa must have access to the sort of information held by the commission. We are assured by General de Chastelain that they will have the co-operation of the commission on one issue in particular: the quantity and type of weapons. How can the verification of the two inspectors have any meaning if they do not understand the volume, or quantity, of arms that they must inspect?
I ask the Secretary of State and the Minister to ensure that one thing happens that did not happen in January. When reports are presented, Mr. Ahtisaari and Mr. Ramaphosa will present a report to the Governments, through the commission, and the commission will present reports to the Governments. Will the Minister reassure me that there will not be a hiatus such as the one that we saw in January, when a report was suppressed and the commission's credibility was diminished--I hope only temporarily--because the Government had suppressed that report?
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