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Mr. Beith: The hon. Gentleman may have misheard or misunderstood the question that I asked, which had to do with the architectural salvage trade. People trade in bricks, staircases, tropical hard woods and all sorts of items that can be re-used. The re-use of such materials provides a considerable saving in terms of energy and scarce resources. That trade is not exempt from the provisions of the Bill, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman and the Bill's promoters will bear in mind that they need to ensure that the trade can continue to operate in the beneficial way that it does at present.
Mr. Clark: I am grateful for that clarification, and recognise the importance of the business to which the right hon. Gentleman refers. I am aware that a similar problem arises with Kent pig tiles, for example. The issue is under active consideration, and further amendments to the Bill may be needed.
The promoters of the Bill have sought to reach agreement on practical issues and to amend the Bill in a way that will assist all concerned. However, the Bill's essential purpose will not be compromised. The process has demonstrated the partnership that exists in Kent between local authorities, police forces and other agencies. That partnership wants to make communities safer for residents, traders and consumers.
I ask the House to support the Bill. It will help to stem the tide of burglaries and offer support to legitimate traders and businesses in the county of Kent. Above all, it will help to close down outlets for stolen goods.
7.29 pm
Mr. Michael Howard (Folkestone and Hythe): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Clark). I congratulate him on his initiative in sponsoring the two Bills--the Bill before us and the Medway Council Bill--on behalf of the two local authorities. There is cross-party consensus in those authorities in favour of the measures. It is encouraging that the Bills at least begin their consideration on the basis of such consensus, although some of the noises off suggest that it may prove short lived.
When I became Home Secretary in 1993, I was given a briefing by Home Office civil servants. They showed me a graph, which clearly displayed the trend in crime. It vividly demonstrated that crime had increased inexorably, relentlessly and almost without interruption under Administrations of all political complexions for 50 years. They said, "This is what's happened to crime in the past 50 years and what will continue to happen in the next 50 years. The first thing you must recognise, Home Secretary, is that there is nothing you can do about it. Your job is to manage public expectations in the face of the inevitability of rising crime."
I did not take that advice. In the four years during which I held the office of Home Secretary, crime fell by approximately 18 per cent. [Laughter.] I am glad that Opposition Members believe that that is a laughing matter. Nearly 1 million fewer crimes occurred in 1997 than in 1993. It is the overriding duty of Government to do all they can to reduce crime, and increase people's safety in their homes and on their streets.
The Bills deal primarily with people's safety and that of their property in their homes. My home is in my constituency in Kent, therefore I, too, declare an interest. The main purpose of the Bill is to reduce burglary by making it more difficult for burglars to get rid of the property that they steal.
Mr. Andrew Rowe (Faversham and Mid-Kent): Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, in being tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime--to coin a phrase--the Bills go some way towards attacking the causes of crime?
Mr. Howard: My hon. Friend is right. Every hon. Member should prize the Bills' objectives. However, when reducing crime--and, as my hon. Friend said, the causes of crime--it is no good willing the end without willing the means.
Mrs. Fiona Jones: How would the Bills reduce the causes of crime? I did not hear a clear explanation of that. I appreciate that they might make it more difficult for people to place goods in the hands of those who sell them, but I do not understand why they would reduce the causes of crime. They might displace crime. One of the criticisms of the measure is that it is a local Bill, confined to Kent. It might therefore--
Mr. Brian Sedgemore (Hackney, South and Shoreditch): Export crime.
Mrs. Jones: Exactly. It might export crime to areas outside Kent.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady was making an intervention.
Mr. Howard: I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Newark (Mrs. Jones) was invited to the briefing that the chief constable of Kent gave this afternoon. The hon. Member for Gillingham nods. If she had accepted that invitation, she would have heard a clear explanation of the way in which the Bills would affect the causes of crime. He explained that professional, prolific burglars operate on a rational basis. They take account of the ease with which they can profitably dispose of the property they steal.
Mrs. Jones: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Mr. Howard: The hon. Lady must wait for the answer to her first question before she asks another. If burglars find it more difficult to dispose of stolen property because of measures such as the Bills that we are considering tonight, they will think twice about committing burglary, because there is so much less in it for them.
The hon. Lady made a point about burglars' ability to dispose of property in the same way in places other than the county of Kent and Medway. There is not a great deal of evidence from other parts of the country that that happens, but if it did, other areas have the remedy in their hands. Councillors in those areas could introduce similar measures. Doubtless they would have a similar effect.
There are only two relevant questions for hon. Members to consider when determining their attitude to the Bill. First, will it work? Secondly, are the burdens that it will impose on legitimate as well as illegitimate businesses justified? I have considered the evidence, and I believe that the answer to both questions is in the affirmative.
Evidence shows that such a measure has worked in North Yorkshire, which has enforced the legislation that is most similar to the Bills. There has been some dispute about the figures, but I am satisfied. I have seen correspondence with those who have the responsibility for implementing the legislation in North Yorkshire. During the period when it has been fully enforced and effectively used, there has been a considerable reduction in the burglary figures for the county.
As the hon. Member for Gillingham said, if one considers the evidence from Medway, where similar arrangements have been in force on a voluntary basis, one sees that there has been a fall in burglary there greater than that for the county of Kent as a whole. In addition, great weight should be given to the views of the chief constable of Kent, for whose leadership I have the greatest respect. He believes that the measures will be effective and make a difference.
Mr. Jonathan Shaw (Chatham and Aylesford): I, too, attended the presentation by the chief constable of Kent. I was struck by the words of Mr. Alex Dalziel, the chief executive of Cash Converters. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree with Mr. Dalziel that the Bill will be good for business? The survey that Cash Converters conducted showed that people were reluctant to go to its stores because they believed that many of the goods were stolen. The Bill will therefore be good for business.
Mr. Howard: The hon. Gentleman makes a telling point, and I agree with him.
Are the burdens justified? Clearly, there is scope for argument about many of the details in the Bill. The cut-off point may need to be amended, and there may well be circumstances in which those burdens should be eased. However, if we are to make a determined assault on crime, and do all we can to achieve what should be the primary objective of the policy--safety for citizens in their homes--the burdens that both Bills impose are justified.
Many of the opponents of the two Bills, including the hon. Member for Newark, have argued that such measures should not be introduced piecemeal and that we should have national legislation. That is a seductive argument. However, there is great merit in local experimentation. We should take advantage of the fact that the House can give local government powers to ascertain whether schemes work.
Many of the most imaginative innovations in criminal justice and social policy in the United States have resulted from local initiatives by individual states. We do not have a federal system and I would not want such a system to be introduced. However, where there is scope within our present constitutional arrangements for local innovation and experimentation to be introduced, it is something to be welcomed and used to our advantage and it is something that the Bill would provide. For all those reasons, I commend it to the House.
7.40 pm
Mr. Derek Wyatt (Sittingbourne and Sheppey): When I first got wind of this Bill I was sympathetic, but on reflection I have changed my mind--hon. Members may call it a U-turn if they like. After studying the philosophical aspects of the Bill, I have come to the conclusion that it is wrong in principle. It is not that I am in favour of supporting burglary; of course we want crime to decrease and sensible efforts to reduce it must be welcomed. Burglary is theft, usually, from houses or dwellings. The Bill deals with the passing of stolen goods.
This Bill and the Medway Council Bill would deal with the problem of stolen property in the county of Kent. They are not a new initiative, as other hon. Members have said, but are based mainly on the North Yorkshire County Council Act 1991. I suspect that there is not an hon. Member in the House who has not been burgled in one way or another. I have had seven burglaries and am still counting--it gets very emotional. However, I want to detach myself from those experiences to consider how the Bill would help to reduce crime in Kent, whether the ends justify the means and whether it would have any real impact on the passing of stolen goods in the local area.
As well as considering how the legislation would work in practice, I wish to end on a positive note. Like every responsible citizen, I want a reduction in crime--I am still open to argument.
A balance of reasonableness must be struck between setting rules for the responsible conduct of a business and binding it so tightly in legislative bureaucracy that it is no longer able to conduct its perfectly legitimate business.
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