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Mr. Howard: I know that my hon. Friend's argument has been advanced by those who are opposed to the Bill. It is true that there is no longer a dedicated antiques unit. However, in the view of professionals in these matters--I am not one of them--there are officers based at headquarters who are in possession of the intelligence that they need to get to grips with the problem. They are capable of operating more effectively under the Kent police model, with which I am sure my hon. Friend is familiar, as we all are. As a result, they are able to operate more effectively in dealing with the crime that we are discussing than those officers who implemented the old-fashioned approach, which had a certain resonance about it. An antiques squad sounds very good, but it does not necessarily work as effectively as the current methods, which are being operated successfully by the Kent police.
Mr. Gale: I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend, but it will not help too much if the person investigating the crime does not know whether he is dealing with Georgian silver or EPNS.
Mr. Howard: He can ask someone.
Mr. Gale: I am surprised that my right hon. and learned Friend is quarrelling with me. I believe that there is a strong case for resourcing police forces properly so that they can have dedicated units that know what they are doing and what they are looking for.
There is a credit side to what I have heard from north Yorkshire. It would be improper of me to draw attention to the down side without putting the credit side on the
record, and I think that the credit side is compelling. As I have said, I am not opposing the Bill. The North Yorkshire constabulary has established good links with reputable antiques shops through its officers. That has led to a two-way traffic of information and co-operation between those dealing honestly and those going about their proper policing business, seeking to prevent crime and recover stolen goods. Officers are able to provide lists of identifiable goods--we come back to whether people know what they are talking about--to antique shops so that the dealers know almost in advance, if possible, what they are likely to be looking for. They will know what has been stolen or what is hot, and what can be recovered and returned to its rightful owner. We hope that that process will lead to the prosecution of the thief. Those are two significant pluses.In the main, antique shops in north Yorkshire have installed video cameras. I understand that dealers have become quite adept at keeping people who they suspect of trying to pass on stolen goods talking while they angle them so that there is a good shot on camera. That sounds as if it is helpful to the police, and it probably helps to solve crime. That is a plus.
I am told that there are emerging patterns. The police are now adept at tracing those who tend to specialise in second-hand and compact discs, for example. They know the outlets that are likely to handle them, and they are having considerable success. I do not quarrel with the figures of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe, and if there has been such a dramatic reduction, it is probably in this area. As I have said, there are many pluses.
I do not want to see the baby thrown out with the bath water, or the best becoming the enemy of the good. However, if the case is proven at all, I believe strongly that it is proven nationally as well as merely locally. We should be getting to grips with the problem of crooks crossing a county boundary and passing on their goods somewhere else.
We should have a nationwide scheme embodied in a Government Bill, not a private Bill. If we are to treat the issue seriously, resources for enforcement must be made available. As the people of north Yorkshire have found, there is no point in having legislation on the statute book if it is not properly resourced.
8.8 pm
Dr. Stephen Ladyman (South Thanet): My parliamentary neighbour, the hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr. Gale), has made some fair and constructive points. He appeared to be arguing for due diligence in Committee to try to improve the Bill. However, if something is not ideal and does not create a perfect world, that is not necessarily a reason for not proceeding. If it represents a step forward, let us take that step. I believe that the Bill offers us that. If it reduces the number of people who are burgled, even by only a few in the hon. Gentleman's constituency and in mine, I suspect that we shall have many happy constituents.
Like many other right hon. and hon. Members, I have been burgled in recent years. Fortunately, I have been able to replace virtually everything that was stolen. The exception is the greatest hits of Jonathan Richman and the Modern Lovers. If any hon. Member can help me identify the source of that estimable CD, I shall be delighted to
hear from him. I suspect that I was the only person to buy it in the first place, and that the only person who has a copy of it now is the person who stole it.Consultation took place before the Bill was drafted. Trade bodies that councils and trading standards officers believed would be interested were consulted, as were local chambers of commerce, town centre managers, district councils and some Kent Members. I was not consulted before the Bill was drafted, but others were. The police, obviously, were heavily involved in drafting the Bill, and several press articles stimulated debate in the county. That consultation has continued with the Association of Private Market Operators, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, the Incorporated Society of Valuers and Auctioneers, the Antiquarian Booksellers Association, the Provincial Booksellers Fairs Association, the Registered Antiques Dealers Society and LAPADA--the Association of Art and Antiques Dealers, formerly the London and Provincial Art Dealers Association. I do not say that all those organisations support the Bill, but all have been consulted. It is not fair to say that there has not been wide consultation.
Some Members have expressed concern about bureaucratic burdens. I draw their attention to the book "Buying and Selling Art and Antiques--the Law", by Brian W. Harvey, a legal consultant to LAPADA. That book sets out the voluntary code of practice that the industry is supposed to adhere to. It requires vendors to provide their name and address and to sign a form identifying items for sale, and confirming that they are the unencumbered property of the vendors who are authorised to sell it.
The form must be dated, and there must be some verification of the identity and address of new vendors. Details must be recorded, and traders are asked to be suspicious of any item for which the asking price does not equate with market value. If they have any reason to be suspicious, they are expected to take a series of steps. If requested, they are expected to submit catalogues to the local police. For sales of £500 or more--single items, or accumulated amounts--special steps are expected to be taken. Vendors are expected to check registers for stolen property.
The industry has voluntarily signed up to that list of burdens, which in my view is no less burdensome than the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Mr. Wyatt) said that many vendors do not adhere to the voluntary code, and he wished that they would. When the Bill is enacted, the code will be adhered to in Kent, and we shall have done the industry a favour by taking a step forward.
Dr. Stoate: Does my hon. Friend agree that the example of a voluntary code of practice that is not being adhered to is a precise reason why we need a statutory code? If dealers do not adhere to a code that seems stricter than that proposed in the Bill, action is needed. Even if we do not reduce crime by a factor of Avogadro's number, the Bill will have a significant effect on crime reduction in Kent and, we hope, across the country.
Dr. Ladyman: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Even if crime is only marginally reduced, we shall do a
service for our constituents. If only one other owner of Jonathan Richman and the Modern Lovers can be saved from the tragedy of losing his copy, we shall have taken a step forward.I hope that the Bill will eventually become Government legislation. I should like my hon. Friend the Minister to watch the experiment in Kent and Medway with great care, and, in a year or so, if it is the success that we believe it will be, to introduce a Bill covering the whole country. I should like him to say that he will do so, and if he does not, when the Bill is enacted and shown to be a success, I shall badger him to adopt it for the whole country.
8.14 pm
Mr. Brian Cotter (Weston-super-Mare): Like many others, I have mixed feelings about the Bill. Its ultimate aim of crime reduction is admirable and a cause that we all support, but that does not absolve us of our responsibility to scrutinise it. The Bill raises some difficult questions.
When the Bill was introduced in the other place, my noble Friend Lord Thomson of Monifieth expressed concern that it was being discussed in the dinner hour, which did not imply that there would be a great deal of scrutiny or discussion. The other place welcomes the fact that we shall give it more discussion than it received there.
I should like to make some points about red tape, a much-discussed matter.
Dr. Ladyman: May I point out that the Bill began its consideration at 7.39 pm in the other place? The House of Lords was in session, and there was a thorough debate. The hon. Gentleman may have been misinformed by whoever told him that there was not.
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