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8.47 pm
Mr. Nick Hawkins (Surrey Heath): I can be brief. The fascination of private business is that one sees differences of opinion within the parties and on different sides of the House. There is no doubt that we have had additional fascinations tonight.
Before coming to the debate, I was aware that different views were held by members of both the main parties on the issues. I knew that some Members representing Kent constituencies on the Government Back Benches supported the Bill and others, as we heard from the hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Mr. Wyatt), opposed it.
I was also aware that, among my right hon. and hon. Friends, some were strongly in favour, some had reservations and some were against, but we have had yet further variations on that theme. We have heard that the hon. Gentleman started off as a supporter of the Bill and has now turned against it, whereas my hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Mr. Fallon) has moved in the opposite direction, having previously been against it. He has now spoken in favour.
We have had the even greater fascination of the reference to Emperor Charles V. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid-Kent (Mr. Rowe), I studied that period of history. I welcome his use of that particular quotation, but one never knows what one will hear in dealing with private business.
Perhaps because of the many differences of opinion among my right hon. and hon. Friends and, indeed, among Members on the Government Benches, Opposition Front Benchers can remain largely agnostic. It is for the sponsors of the Bill to make their case. I understand why my hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Mr. Gale) has expressed some reservations. For myself, I always want to express some scepticism when further legislation is being contemplated, particularly if it puts burdens on small businesses. I am a deregulator by nature and by instinct.
Before I was on the Front Bench, I frequently said that if I was ever lucky enough to win a high place in the ballot, the Bill I would introduce--perhaps one day I will have the chance to do so--was the automatic repeal of legislation Bill, under which, for every new page of statute, we should find at least one page of existing statute to repeal. Perhaps we could follow that by repealing 10 pages for every new page.
The trouble with any Government, regardless of party, is that there is a constant flow of legislation. For many years, I was one of the vice-chairmen of the small business bureau. I know that the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Cotter) shares my interest in these issues. He referred to another national organisation, the Federation of Small Businesses. I think he would agree that those and other organisations representing small business would have similar concerns.
My hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks referred to letters that many of us have received from a gentleman who runs an antiques fair business in the constituency of the hon. Member for Newark (Mrs. Jones). I was particularly concerned by one of the points made in the accompanying documentation about the London and Provincial Antique Dealers Association.
My hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) spoke of displacing crime. As a Surrey Member, I have an interest in ensuring that we try to
tackle crime throughout my constituency and my county. Everyone in Surrey is well aware that mobile criminals using the motorway network--in particular, the M25 and the M3--are frequently involved in burglary and other crimes. It is well known to my chief constable and all his officers in Surrey that a large amount of crime is committed by people outside our own county. The issues mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury, who strongly supports the Bill, in relation to the displacement of crime are of concern to every county. Is it possible that those who have expressed reservations about private Bills and suggested that we should wait for national legislation have a point?I was particularly struck by what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet. He said that the reasons for some of his personal reservations about Bills such as this were based on his discussions with our hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway), relating to his experience in North Yorkshire. There are clearly different opinions--we have heard different opinions in the debate--about what the North Yorkshire experience actually means. If there is more than one view about the North Yorkshire experience, we need to take care before we impose yet further burdens on small businesses.
As the London and Provincial Antique Dealers Association has said, Bills such as this would undoubtedly impose burdens if they became law. It suggests that, given the demand for detailed records of every second-hand purchase that takes place either in Kent or anywhere involving dealers registered in Kent, between half a million and a million records would have to be made each year, and then thrown away after three years. Everyone who has traded in Kent would keep those records--not only traders based in the county, but traders scattered across Britain. Moreover, we should consider the extra burden imposed by red tape on law-abiding and legitimate small and medium-sized businesses.
This has been a fascinating debate, not least because of the number of Labour Members who supported my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard). I echo what my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury said about his having been the most successful Home Secretary in terms of tackling crime. It is a change to hear so many Labour Members support my right hon. and learned Friend. No doubt he welcomes that, as I do. We used to hear very different comments.
I would be reluctant to oppose what my right hon. and learned Friend and chief constables say will help to tackle crime, but there are undoubtedly balanced arguments, which is no doubt why members of the same party on both sides of the House have taken different views. This has been a fascinating debate, but not one that prompts the official Opposition to feel it necessary to come down on one side or the other.
8.54 pm
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Charles Clarke): As the hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Mr. Hawkins) said, this has been a most interesting and illuminating debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham (Mr. Clark) both on prosecuting it and on the way in which he put his case. It is conventional in this type of debate for Governments to be neutral rather than to take a particular side, but there are one or two observations that I should like to make.
First, I should like to state that the Government did have objections to parts of the Kent County Council Bill, which were set out in our report of 17 March 1999, when the Bill was being discussed. I should like to place on record, however, that the Government are content that the Bill's promoters have taken on board our comments satisfactorily, so that the points covered in the report have been appropriately and properly met.
Secondly, I should like to join in the general tributes that have been paid to the chief constable of Kent. Not only does he chair the Association of Chief Police Officers crime committee, but my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary appointed him to be the vice-chair of the taskforce, which I chair and which deals with crime reduction. As the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) described very well, the chief constable has led the whole drive towards intelligence-led policing not only in Kent but across the country. He has developed many of the approaches that we are now seeking to roll out across the country.
I myself have not spoken to the chief constable about the Bill but I am very keen to pay tribute to his work, and it is the case--I thought the hon. Member for Canterbury put it extremely well--that the chief constable's focus on sources of criminality, hot spots and patterns of behaviour is a model to us all in how crime should be fought. As Members on both of sides the House have described, the Bill reflects that type of approach to addressing such issues.
I therefore confirm on behalf of the Government that we understand the chief constable's support for the Bill, and understand that he supports it not only as chief constable of Kent but because he understands many of the wider issues that have been raised in the debate and sees advantages in it.
Various hon. Members have asked whether there should be national legislation in this sphere. The argument that we should await national legislation before acting has even been used as an argument against the Bill. However, I assure my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman) that although I cannot follow him in his musical tastes, the Government will watch operation of this Bill and practice in other areas very closely for precisely the reason that I have just given--namely, to decide whether it would be appropriate to consider national legislation in that context. It is valuable to have this type of experiment, and to understand the issues and how they are being addressed. That is why we want to examine very carefully what is being done.
As the hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Mr. Fallon) said, it is true that there are always competing pressures for legislative time. That is certainly true in the Home Office, in dealing with the various items of legislation that the House is considering in this Session. Nevertheless, it is important that we examine what is happening, learn what we can from it and consider the desirability of appropriate national legislation.
The hon. Member for Surrey Heath was right to say that we always have to strike a balance between the burdens on industry, which he described, and the crime solution benefits that we can achieve in that regard. That will be a matter to be taken into consideration by the Government.
In answer to the question asked by the hon. Member for Sevenoaks, I am not aware of other examples in other parts of the country or of other police authorities and
forces that are essentially queueing up behind the Bill with their own initiatives. However, I shall look into the matter, and if I am wrong in that I shall write to him. He made an entirely appropriate point.I was interested in the comparison with Emperor Charles V used by the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid-Kent (Mr. Rowe). Although my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has in his recent life had to bear many comparisons with particular types of historical figures, I do not think that Charles V has previously arisen as a role model for him. However, I shall certainly draw the comparison to his attention and ask whether he needs to bear in mind any particular aspects of the emperor's behaviour in thinking how he should conduct his duties and meet his responsibilities.
I simply counsel hon. Members against making the best be the enemy of the good in discussion of the need for national legislation versus the need for local legislation. Obviously, there are real arguments about the advantages of national legislation, and the travelling arguments that have been made are real and substantial. However, that does not of itself convince that one should necessarily resist a particular item of legislation, regardless of whether one wants to follow the particular argument advanced by some hon. Members on the benefits or otherwise of local legislation.
My hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Mr. Wyatt) raised some points about the Human Rights Act 1998 in a letter to me a few weeks ago. The situation is complicated. Private Acts are not exempt from the Human Rights Act 1998, which applies equally to public and private Bills once they are enacted. A higher court will be able to issue a declaration of incompatibility in respect of a private Act, just as it can for any primary legislation. However, Parliament has decided that under section 19 of the Human Rights Act 1998, if a Minister of the Crown is in charge of a Bill, that Minister must make a statement of opinion on the Bill's compatibility with the convention rights. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham made clear, that section does not apply to private Bills because there is no Minister in charge. Some problems arise as a result of that.
Section 19 applies to a Government Bill or a consolidation Bill, but it does not apply to private Members' Bills or private Bills because there is no duty to make a statement about their compatibility with convention rights. However, concerns have been expressed about the Government giving a view about the compatibility of private Bills. We are considering the issue urgently and I hope that we may be able to make an announcement in the next few weeks, because there are important issues involved.
My hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General made the position clear in the House on 13 April in response to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay). Accepting that my hon. Friend had raised a serious point about private Bills, my hon. and learned Friend said:
- The concerns that he has expressed on previous occasions have been taken on board. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is considering them seriously.--[Official Report, 13 April 2000; Vol. 348, c. 496.]
I have tried to set out the Government's approach. We are conventionally neutral on such Bills and I hope that I have not said anything to suggest that we are anything other than neutral on this Bill. However, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham on the way in which he introduced the debate. It is important to look at all possible ways to combat crime and this offers many aspects of interest.
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