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Mr. Winnick: Is the hon. Gentleman saying, in effect, that if matters are delayed considerably because some hon. Members exercise their right and continue to oppose a measure or a number of measures for hours on end, the House should have no protection whatever?
Mr. Shepherd: The hon. Gentleman will recall that I mentioned the first British Telecom Bill, which was
discussed for 170 hours in Committee. Where there is wilful delay over many hours or days, I recognise that the House may want to resolve the matter by the imposition of a time limit. I have seen that all my parliamentary life. That is not the point at issue.We are presented with the justification for the guillotine on two Bills because they were, respectively, one hour and 12 minutes in Committee and one hour and 13, or 30, minutes in Committee. I intend no disservice to the Minister whose unpleasant duty it is to try to make sense of the appalling motion before us, when I ask why, as a courtesy to the House, members of the Cabinet are not present to justify it.
This is not a matter of formality; it is a profound matter of principle. The House can be exasperated and, at that point, do something about deliberate delay, but there is no evidence of that in the 40 Bills to which I referred. The House is well aware that guillotines are now being imposed on constitutional matters.
I see that the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Mr. Gorrie), who is a Member of the Scottish Parliament, is present. He knows that part of the Scotland Act 1998 was guillotined. The Government of Wales Act 1998 and the Greater London Authority Act 1999 were also guillotined. There are no longer any frontiers. The motion proves that precedent is now on the side of the guillotine, which is the weapon not of Back Benchers, but of the Executive. It is their assertion of absolute control over the House.
The answer lies in ourselves. We made the point when considering the Freedom of Information Bill, and we shall make it again. The procedure is wrong and it is employed almost ritualistically. The new Labour Government have become fond of telling the House that opposition to such matters is ritualistic; it is not. As the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich pointed out, it is at the heart of our purpose and our being here.
5.5 pm
Mr. Doug Henderson (Newcastle upon Tyne, North): I participate in the debate with some reluctance. The Government will be pleased to know that I support them. I would not speak in the debate if I believed that, if I did not speak, we would discuss the substance of the issues, or we could prevent some of the marauders in the Conservative party from taking up more time. However, by participating, I can say what I believe should happen.
I have been here for 13 years. Some hon. Members have asked about the extent to which newer hon. Members understand parliamentary matters and should listen to those who have been here a little longer. I listen to those who have been here longer than me--I always listen to my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), who made several points. She believes with great passion that we should go in a specific direction. I cannot agree with her. I do not agree with her comments today and I did not agree with those sentiments 13 years ago.
My first job in this place was serving on a Standing Committee that considered a measure to enable privatisation of the water industry. It contained approximately six clauses. In the middle of October, the Labour Chief Whip told us, "Just keep it going till February." That was supposed to be a method of disposing effectively of an important measure. We kept a Bill of six
clauses going until February. Once, I spoke for two hours 20 minutes on whether one could better consult the public on privatisation at St. James' Park or Roker Park. I am confident that if I had brought Hartlepool's ground into the equation, I could have sustained the speech for a bit longer. I have therefore served my time as a marauder. Several colleagues in the Chamber have fulfilled that role recently. I know the game, but I do not believe that it enhances democracy or the reputation of Parliament.I am not totally uncritical of the Government. They have probably introduced too much legislation. I realise that they do not want to listen to my messages; nevertheless, my message to them would be to be more selective. The punters in my constituency do not understand 50 Bills. However, they might get a grip on three or four important measures, such as the minimum wage, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) referred earlier. The Government should be a little more selective in introducing measures. If they introduce too much legislation, they bring on themselves some of the tensions that we are all currently experiencing.
However, I do not blame the Government entirely, or the marauders on the Opposition Benches. The right hon. Gentlemen from Scottish backgrounds will know that I call them sleekit marauders who operate only at night, but I do not blame them because they are only taking advantage of the parliamentary procedures available to any Member or small group of Members who wish to hold the rest of the House to ransom.
Mr. Forth: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way as he referred to me and to my right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean). He may not be aware that my right hon. Friend and I were here on Friday when two excellent Bills made progress. The House sits on many Fridays. Regrettably, few other Members attended other than my right hon. Friend and myself, who were here doing our duty. Most of the Lady Members who complain bitterly about the alleged anti-social hours of the House did not attend, but the House sat between 9.30 am and 3 pm on Friday, and was very thinly attended.
Mr. Henderson: I usually like to hear the right hon. Gentleman's arguments, but he makes one of those ingenious arguments that one used to hear at Glasgow university, which he attended. Some points sound very much like those made in a debating society; they are not related to the real issues that affect this country and our constituents. I do not blame him, other Conservative Members or the Government; I blame the system, which needs reform. Whatever a Government's colour, they will face more and more demands to legislate and regulate to protect the public and their human rights, which the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) thinks very important.
Mr. Paterson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Henderson: In a little while.
There will be such pressures and we must design a system that allows the Government to set priorities and Members to comment on them in the House. The Government's programme must be accountable, but a
distinction has to be drawn in parliamentary procedures between important issues, such as armed forces reform or major economic or social security changes, and the role of ice-cream salesmen in a royal park. That is my argument with the current system. We in the House are all far too conservative; we must consider reforms that would make the House efficient and effective.
Mr. Henderson: I shall give way in a second.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Ms Kingham) is a very able Back Bencher and when I was a Minister she asked me one of the hardest questions that I ever had to deal with in a Standing Committee. Contrary to some of the points that have been made by Opposition Members, she asks good questions and is interested in the real issues. It pains me that younger people with family commitments are not able to fulfil them and still make the impact in the House that they could. That is a tragedy. They could make an impact in industry and commerce even if they had family commitments because they are more realistic about, and tolerant of, the family. We preach about family values in the House, but it is the most family unfriendly institution that I have ever known.
Ms Kingham: Several issues need to be addressed. As hon. Members on both sides of the House have said, some Members want the House to work from 9 to 5, as in any other job. Those of us who criticise the current system are not saying that; we do not mind working incredibly long hours. When I was involved in international development, I always worked long hours, went overseas at the drop of a hat and worked at 3 or 4 in the morning. That is not a problem--when it is worth while. However, many of us feel that it is difficult to do a good job for our constituents when we have to sit up all night or are called in at the whim of a few others to take part in such silly activities. That does our constituents no credit and involves putting off appointments to the next day or rejigging them completely, which causes unpredictability--we never know where we are. Those are the real issues.
Comments have been made about some of us not attending. I have been away for four months having twins. I am terribly sorry, but I cannot leave them at the drop of a hat. This should be a modern Parliament that can accommodate women Members having children as well as serving their constituents.
Mr. Henderson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising those points. She has brought home far better than I could the extent of the pressures that not only she but others, male and female--although I think the pressures are greater on females than they are on any male--experience in this institution. I think that when reforms come, as they will, hers will prove to have been a major contribution, and I hope that, if she does not stand at the next election, we shall see her back here when her family grows up a bit.
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