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6.31 pm
Sir Patrick Cormack: By leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is terribly important that there is a ministerial winding-up to this important debate.
I draw the Minister's attention, yet again, to three matters; at the very least, I ask him to address them. First, will he explain why the Government have imposed a guillotine before Report on one Bill and when there will be no Report on the other, because no amendments have been tabled? If ever there was a case of premature overreaction, this is it. In his opening remarks, the Minister did not begin to address that matter. We have seen a Government reacting in pique, annoyance and petulance because some parliamentarians take their duties seriously. The Minister must deal with that point.
Secondly, the Minister must address the underlying issue--the context of the debate. Apart from the fact that the Government are piqued and petulant, why have they been driven to this expedient? It is because they have overloaded Parliament with legislation. It was noticeable that even the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, North (Mr. Henderson), who has now left the Chamber, spoke of the need to introduce only a few pieces of legislation. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) and I shared a smile when the hon. Gentleman said that we should have only three or four pieces of legislation, but then argued for a timetable. If there were only a few measures, we should have to consider that argument seriously. The Minister did not begin to address that matter.
Thirdly, I direct the Minister to the most important contribution to the debate. It was not the vastly entertaining speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean), although it was a splendid parliamentary exercise; nor was it the many pertinent interventions made by my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow) who made the most extraordinary admission. His maiden speech was itself--to use a famous phrase--a brazen hussy of a speech. However, he now says that he is a parliamentary virgin--good gracious me, I have never heard such a confession.
The most important speech was made by the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody). In 10 minutes, she encapsulated what Parliament should be about. She speaks from many years' experience of the House, and as one of the most distinguished members of the Chairmen's Panel. She pointed out to the Minister that a usurpation of Parliament's democratic position is implicit in such a motion. I want to hear what he has to say about that.
6.35 pm
Mr. Tipping: First, it would be churlish of me not to acknowledge the bouquets and brickbats that have been thrown at me across the Chamber. The debate has been interesting; its importance has become ever more apparent as it progressed.
The motion paves the way for two important Bills that the House will have the opportunity--albeit limited--to discuss later this evening: the Nuclear Safeguards Bill and the Sea Fishing Grants (Charges) Bill. Those who accuse us of considering those Bills unimportant are mistaken.
The significance of the debate has been in relation to process--the way in which we conduct our business. Several hon. Members made important and fundamental speeches--my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) has been mentioned more than once.
The debate has drawn out the wide range of views in the House, including that of those who might be described as the Dick Turpins, the Jesse Jameses or the marauders--those who use parliamentary tactics legitimately to disrupt business. I acknowledge that without apology. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) was prayed in aid. Some time ago, I had to counsel him to stop giving tutorials to the Opposition--they were becoming too effective. Those hon. Members want to maintain the status quo--the right of Back Benchers to fight and to work into the night. I was struck by the comment of my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich that the House has broken more people than it has made.
On the other hand, a group of hon. Members--mainly my hon. Friends--argued that we should modernise and change our procedures. In the middle--as always--were the Liberal Democrats. They argued strongly for modernisation--but not tonight, because they will not support the motions. They argued that we have not got the balance right. I look forward to reading the paper produced by the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Mr. Stunell).
Mr. Stunell: The Minister implies that the guillotine is a modern invention that is driving forward the procedures of the House. Would he care to use the remainder of his speech to justify that outrageous statement?
Mr. Tipping: I am grateful to have the opportunity of a second go. It has been said that the Liberal Democrats always sit on the fence. Their performance this evening has demonstrated that. They say that, although they do
not like the way the House works at present, they are not prepared to support the Government on this motion, but that, perhaps, they will give us an answer in the future.The hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir P. Cormack) made an important point about balance. We must get the balance right. He asked me specifically to reflect on the comments made during the debate and to talk to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House and to other Cabinet colleagues about them. Of course, I will.
We must put into the balance the obvious desire of a small group of hon. Members to use the Chamber, quite legitimately, as a debating society--as a place to test ideas and to push the Government to the wall. I do not object to that--I have never done so. We must also consider those who argue strongly that in order to do some of the things that hon. Members want us to do, we should reform our procedures.
I will closely consider the comments of the hon. Member for South Staffordshire on the programming of Bills. He will remember that that idea sprang from the Jopling report; he will remember that the Conservative party signed up to the report of the Modernisation Committee; and he will remember that the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir G. Young), the shadow Leader of the House, has in recent weeks worked hard to make programming work. That is an important and significant way forward.
Mr. Bermingham: Surely the test of whether the Opposition's approach is genuine would be their willingness for the House to sit into August and in September and October. That would create more time for debate.
Mr. Tipping: As always, my hon. Friend leads me on to another important point, and it has been mentioned tonight. I have been struck by the number of hon. Members who have said that there are 659 Members of Parliament. There is no rubric for doing the job correctly. The right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) clearly thinks that his priority is to be in Chamber frequently and religiously to debate the issues. Other hon. Members--I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich for pointing this out--have argued that we do not start at 2.30 pm and work until whatever time at night. Many colleagues spend time on the work of Standing Committees and Select Committees, and other hon. Members believe that it is important to go round the country so that they can talk to people and listen to their views.
Mr. Tipping: The right hon. Gentleman's remark typifies the view that we know all the answers. That charge has been laid against the Government, but I remind the House--
It being three hours after the commencement of proceedings on the motion, Mr. Deputy Speaker put the question, pursuant to Standing Order No. 83 (Allocation of time to bills).
The House divided: Ayes 294, Noes 140.
AYES
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary
Ashton, Joe
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)
Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)
Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Bradley, Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Brinton, Mrs Helen
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Butler, Mrs Christine
Byers, Rt Hon Stephen
Caborn, Rt Hon Richard
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, Dale
Cann, Jamie
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Clark, Dr Lynda
(Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Cohen, Harry
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cooper, Yvette
Corbett, Robin
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, David
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Dalyell, Tam
Darvill, Keith
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, John
Donohoe, Brian H
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, David
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Field, Rt Hon Frank
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Fyfe, Maria
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
Gerrard, Neil
Gilroy, Mrs Linda
Godman, Dr Norman A
Goggins, Paul
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Grogan, John
Hain, Peter
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Heal, Mrs Sylvia
Healey, John
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hill, Keith
Hinchliffe, David
Hoon, Rt Hon Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, Alan (Newport E)
Howells, Dr Kim
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Illsley, Eric
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)
Johnson, Miss Melanie
(Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)
Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Ms Jenny
(Wolverh'ton SW)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jowell, Rt Hon Ms Tessa
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
Kelly, Ms Ruth
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
Kingham, Ms Tess
Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laxton, Bob
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Lock, David
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McCartney, Rt Hon Ian
(Makerfield)
McDonagh, Siobhain
Macdonald, Calum
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Mrs Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNulty, Tony
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Maxton, John
Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Meale, Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, Rt Hon Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Mitchell, Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle
(B'ham Yardley)
Morris, Rt Hon Sir John (Aberavon)
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Organ, Mrs Diana
Pendry, Tom
Perham, Ms Linda
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Plaskitt, James
Pond, Chris
Pope, Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prescott, Rt Hon John
Primarolo, Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Rt Hon Ms Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Radice, Rt Hon Giles
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd
Raynsford, Nick
Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Rowlands, Ted
Roy, Frank
Ruddock, Joan
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Miss Geraldine
(Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Spellar, John
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr Howard
Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
(Dewsbury)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Tynan, Bill
Vis, Dr Rudi
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Ms Claire
Wareing, Robert N
Watts, David
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Rt Hon Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Wills, Michael
Wilson, Brian
Winnick, David
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wray, James
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. David Jamieson and
Mr. Mike Hall.
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Amess, David
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Baldry, Tony
Bell, Martin (Tatton)
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blunt, Crispin
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Breed, Colin
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burns, Simon
Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies
(NE Fife)
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney
(Chipping Barnet)
Chope, Christopher
Clappison, James
Collins, Tim
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cotter, Brian
Cran, James
Curry, Rt Hon David
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davies, Quentin (Grantham)
Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)
Day, Stephen
Duncan Smith, Iain
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fearn, Ronnie
Flight, Howard
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam
Fraser, Christopher
Gale, Roger
Garnier, Edward
George, Andrew (St Ives)
Gibb, Nick
Gidley, Sandra
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gorrie, Donald
Green, Damian
Greenway, John
Gummer, Rt Hon John
Hague, Rt Hon William
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Hammond, Philip
Harvey, Nick
Hawkins, Nick
Heald, Oliver
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, Rt Hon Michael
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson Smith,
Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Keetch, Paul
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, Oliver
Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Madel, Sir David
Major, Rt Hon John
Malins, Humfrey
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian
May, Mrs Theresa
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Moss, Malcolm
Nicholls, Patrick
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Randall, John
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Rendel, David
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Laurence
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Rowe, Andrew (Faversham)
Ruffley, David
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
St Aubyn, Nick
Sanders, Adrian
Sayeed, Jonathan
Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Streeter, Gary
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Tyler, Paul
Tyrie, Andrew
Webb, Steve
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Willis, Phil
Wilshire, David
Yeo, Tim
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Peter Atkinson and
Mr. Keith Simpson.
Question accordingly agreed to.
- That the following provisions shall apply to the remaining proceedings on the Nuclear Safeguards Bill [Lords] and the Sea Fishing Grants (Charges) Bill--
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