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Mr. Peter Bottomley: This is not the time to rehearse various arguments, but does my hon. Friend agree that one ought to try to distinguish between establishing and providing facts, and drawing conclusions from them?
Mrs. Gorman: I will give my hon. Friend the benefit of the doubt. I am suggesting that, given the pressures of the job and the amount of time that can be devoted to it, hon. Members need legal advice from the beginning of such a process. It is important that they should at least have the opportunity to discuss matters with some legal representative. As my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough pointed out, because lawyers are subject to people importuning them for their services for nothing, they are inclined to say that they would have to charge a fee. He makes no bones about the fact that he was in such a position in advising my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Worcestershire. I entirely accept that.
I should like to emphasise two things. There are many ways in which a member of the public can defame or bring charges against a Member. They can do so boldly, directly through a newspaper or an outside lawyer, but, as a result of the system that we have rightly implemented to review the conduct of Members, they have a third route. That system could be used not just by direct litigants, if I may put it that way, but through straw men. Individuals or newspapers can bring a case that they dare not make directly in the public domain, which is then reported under the protection of the privilege that this House and its Committees offer.
7.56 pm
Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester): I strongly support the opening statement of the Parliamentary Secretary. The motions only provide a Member of Parliament with a measure of protection against being sued for libel: they would not protect him in the event of his being defamed. I was interested in the example given by my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir G. Young), who described when he was defamed as an illustration of why the area generally needs to be considered--although my right hon. Friend's specific example would of course be excluded under the motions.
Sooner or later, we shall have to consider some protection for Members who are defamed. If the Parliamentary Secretary, as a Minister of the Crown, is defamed as a consequence of his duties, he will consult the Law Officers. After consultation, the Law Officers will pick up the bill for enabling him to pursue a case to protect him. However, if an MP is defamed, he has no such protection and must take action off his or own bat.
Mr. Peter Bottomley: What my hon. Friend says is true, but it is not the whole truth. The whole truth is that any Minister who is contemplating or even threatening legal action for defamation must seek the agreement of the Law Officers and the Prime Minister, long before there is any question of paying legal costs.
Mr. Tyrie: Clearly, there is a logical sequence of speaking to the Law Officers before any bill is picked up. As I said--I think it was clear enough--the first thing that a Minister should do is consult the Law Officers. If a Minister is defamed in the course of his duties, the Law Officers will so advise him. So I do not think that there is any difference between my hon. Friend and me on that point.
The logical course of action for Members of Parliament would be to take out some legal expenses insurance against the risk of being libelled. The cost of that could be quite high, and cannot at the moment be set against the office costs allowance. I suggest to Members present that we must consider facilitating that in the long run, although we would clearly want to ensure that such use of the office costs allowance was restricted to appropriate cases. The fact that such cover would be only through libel insurance would enable the Fees Office to examine the insurance contract and ensure that it related only to defamation of a Member in the course of his duties.
It would also be very important that such cover did not enable Members to bring frivolous cases every time anybody said anything they did not like. Limiting access
to insurance will mean that that is addressed because before agreeing to go ahead with a case the insurer will want to examine whether it is frivolous and what are its chances of success. That will probably cut out silly cases, as it does for most other people who take out libel insurance. I notice that the Minister nods agreement at that point.I do not think that the Minister will support my proposal at present, because it goes much further than the motion. But I ask all hon. Members to think about the matter seriously. It is quite possible that many of us will be libelled at some time in our parliamentary life. We have very little protection from that; we have much less protection than Ministers and much less than many people who work for other institutions, which would help with the costs.
Mr. Tyrie: I am about to conclude, because I do not want to detain the House further, so I hope the hon. Gentleman will excuse me if I do not give way.
Most Members are not in a financial position to risk a hugely expensive case. We have heard from a libel lawyer tonight that £10,000 does not go very far. The matter will have to be examined in the long run. In an increasingly litigious environment, such as my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire described, something will have to be done to enable Members to bring reasonable actions.
8.1 pm
Mr. Tipping: With the leave of the House, I should like to respond to the debate.
First, I warmly welcome the broad support across the House tonight. Although we are dealing with a motion primarily brought by the Government, this is a House matter. I am delighted that the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir G. Young) and the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler) put their names to the motion, because this is a non-partisan issue and it is important that we behave appropriately.
A number of examples have been brought to our attention which clearly show the litigious nature of our society now.
Mr. John Burnett (Torridge and West Devon): I agree with the Minister that we are living in a very litigious society. For that reason, will he and other hon. Members in due course consider the possibility of having insurance cover for certain other tortious matters, such as negligence?
Mr. Tipping: I shall come to that in a moment. I do not want to comment on individual cases. The hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) was tempted to be drawn into discussions of individual cases, which would not be appropriate tonight. If I do not cover every point raised in the debate, I shall write to hon. Members individually.
I should like to reinforce one broad point made by my hon. Friend and neighbour the Member for Newark (Mrs. Jones). I refer to the difficulty that we all have in protecting our children and our families. This is a real issue for us all.
The hon. Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr. Burnett) and others, including the hon. Members for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) and for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie), made points that would broaden the motion, in a sense to have it provide insurance not to protect Members but to bring proceedings. The hon. Member for Torridge and West Devon extended it by asking about cases of negligence. These are House matters, and we shall carefully examine the points made. There is a particular matter in relation to negligence. I am always very conscious at my own surgery about some of the advice I give. I think that we shall have to return to this in due course.
Mr. Campbell-Savours: I counsel very strongly against extending the motion to negligence. Hundreds, if not thousands, of cases would be brought against Members of Parliament if the public thought there was a bottomless pit of the public purse to save them.
Mr. Tipping: Some hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell- Savours), give good advice and pursue matters extremely rigorously in the Chamber, and use all the techniques available to them, including the use of privilege on occasion. If my hon. Friend listened to my words carefully he would know that I said that we shall have to explore the matter. I gave no commitment; I said that it was an issue that we would have to look at.
The hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow) asked what the position was in other countries. There are many schemes. In broad terms, European Parliaments tend to give better protection than Commonwealth Parliaments, but I think that things will change over a period.
I thought for a moment that my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) was going to advertise his book, which is due out this autumn. I do not think that it is under the title "Honest Joe", although perhaps that is the subtext. My hon. Friend tempted me to say whether he would be protected. There is a good deal of case law around libel, and my hon. Friend's publishers will want to speak to him carefully. But I do not want to talk about individual cases.
The hon. Member for North Cornwall made a very fair point, reminding us that we should revisit the office costs allowance, and in particular the arrangements for our staff. Discussions are going on through the usual channels about that. I hope that, over time, we shall be able to do better through the office costs allowance. The hon. Gentleman's comments have been noted.
The hon. and learned Member for Harborough asked me four straight questions that fit in very much with the questions raised by the hon. Member for Worthing, West (Mr. Bottomley). First, the hon. and learned Gentleman asked whether there would be one policy or whether Members would be entitled to opt out of the scheme. We shall consider his point, but our intention at this stage is for there to be one policy. We feel that we shall obtain better value for money out of one policy covering all hon. Members.
The hon. and learned Gentleman asked me not to take a restricted approach, but to be more generous. He rightly reminded me that for a premium of £18,000, hon. Members will receive cover of perhaps only £10,000. I am very mindful of the advice that he gave the House.
We want not to be excessive but to ensure that we have a scheme that meets needs. Clearly, the hon. and learned Gentleman has a better knowledge than I have of legal costs, but I think that £10,000 would not take us very far in giving colleagues protection. What we seek from the House tonight is approval in principle so that we can get out into the market and negotiate these matters.The hon. and learned Gentleman also raised with me the broader issue of the other insurance policies, an issue which his hon. Friend the Member for Worthing, West picked up. The policies around travel and personal liability already exist. We are simply transferring them into a different boat. I do not know the details of the scheme; I do not know how far the policies are attached to duties as an MP and how far they are attached to wider activities. It is a very important point. The two are sometimes very difficult to distinguish. I shall write to colleagues about this, and it may be an issue about which the Fees Office will want to write to hon. Members.
The hon. and learned Gentleman raised the Neill report, as did the hon. Member for Billericay. The hon. and learned Gentleman asked what protection Members would receive if as part of their parliamentary duties they acted on a quango or as directors. This is an important point. As the motion stands, the biggest part of their parliamentary duties would be covered, but there is some fuzziness about this, and we shall have to look at it. In a broader context, the issue of local councillors acting in quangos is being explored by the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions.
The hon. Member for Worthing, West asked about the position of Officers of the House. Official civil servants working for a Department are covered, but I cannot confidently assure him that officials of the House are covered. There should be equity and, if that is not the case, we will take steps to ensure that Officers of the House are also covered. The hon. Gentleman also made the point that perhaps we should contribute to the costs ourselves and he was quick in his sums to come up with a figure of 55p a week. I have some experience of such matters and feel that collecting 55p a week might cost more than it would raise. However, the hon. Gentleman was right to say that Members should bear some responsibility. The hon. Gentleman also made the point that the cover should not be so excessive that no risk attached to the Member involved.
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