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Mr. Heald: The hon. Lady should not perpetuate a myth. The reasoned amendment that the Opposition tabled on Second Reading of that Bill said that the powers in it were inadequate, and called for tougher measures.
Helen Jones: It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman's remarks are at variance with the response of the police. The police said that they needed the powers in the Bill, yet the hon. Gentleman voted against it.
Mr. Heald: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Helen Jones: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I should like to make some progress. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman will be able to speak at the end of the debate, as our silent Whip says.
Reducing crime is also about encouraging partnerships. The Opposition make light of that, but it is one of the most effective ways of tackling crime in our communities and keeping people safe. That is why we are investing £250 million in crime reduction programmes and why we have put £170 million worth of investment into closed circuit television cameras.
The crime and disorder reduction partnerships around the country are beginning to tackle crime. More important, they are changing attitudes. I should like to give an example of how that has operated in my constituency. We had a problem in an area called Birchwood, caused by a small number of young people. Everyone knew who they were. We have brought together to tackle that not just the police and the youth offending teams but local councils and the housing association for the area. As well as tackling those particular offenders, we have been looking at how to make the whole area safer so that people are less likely to have the opportunity to commit crimes.
Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster, Central): Does my hon. Friend agree that the attitude of the Conservative party in dismissing local partnerships as useless and ineffective sends completely the wrong message to people and agencies working together to carry out the improvements that she eloquently describes.
Helen Jones: I could not agree more. I would go further: the Conservative attitude sends the wrong message to people whom the right hon. and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe, the former Home Secretary, quite rightly praised earlier for standing up to criminals in their community. These people must be supported, and we are putting into place the measures and the partnerships to support them. The fact that the Opposition reject that says much about their real agenda. It is about whipping up fears in the community. It is more about headline-grabbing than about tackling crime.
The Conservatives hope that we have forgotten their past record. Were she here, the right hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald would tell them that when it comes to obtaining forgiveness for their past record, absolution requires a firm purpose of amendment. They
have no purpose of amendment at the moment. They remain recidivists on crime, and for that reason, I urge the House to reject the motion.6.24 pm
Mr. Peter Bottomley (Worthing, West): The hon. Member for Warrington, North (Helen Jones) may be a pleasant person, but that was a pretty nasty speech. It was unnecessarily and inaccurately partisan, and I hope that if she re-reads it tomorrow--she may be the only person who does--she will spot the occasions when she should have followed the examples of the hon. Members for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) and for Waveney (Mr. Blizzard) in reflecting the real concerns of constituents. Those hon. Members were able to say that; I am able to say that; and most right hon. and hon. Members will say that. We should have a partnership not just with local organisations but across the House to achieve what our constituents want, whether they are represented by a Labour, Conservative or Liberal Democrat Member of Parliament, or anyone else.
Our constituents want to have a sense of security; they want to believe that three essential things are happening. They want to know that fewer people commit serious crimes; that those who do so commit them over a shorter period; and that a growing number of people find something worthwhile to do in the campaign on behalf of the victims of crime. Those are the three crucial elements.
If anyone wants confirmation of that, I suggest that they watch "Crimewatch UK Update" this evening. My constituent Michael Abatan is related to a victim of crime who died; he was a victim in the same event, in which he was injured, and he is a witness. There are many people like him, like his partner Kathy, and like the partner of his brother Jay Abatan who died, who want people to help in solving crimes. They would be the first to say that we should try, with the police and everybody else, to cut down on the amount of crime committed.
Let me give an indication of how serious the problem is. Every week, 2,400 people in this country are, for the first time, convicted of a serious criminal offence, for which they could be sent to jail for six months or more. Fortunately, they are not sent to jail in large numbers. I shall also give a comparison because I am often reminded by my doctor daughter that politicians talk, but do not always give evidence or figures on the basis of which their remarks can be judged. In the United States, whose population is five times this country's, there are 2 million people in jail. The equivalent for this country, on the basis of population, would be 400,000 people in jail. We actually have getting on for 70,000 people in jail. Our crime rate does not match that in the United States. So although prison has a purpose and may be necessary, it is false to say that it is the way to reduce the number of victims of crime, the number who become criminals for the first time or the amount of time for which people remain criminals.
I shall claim to be the voice of the liberal establishment, as no one else has. I do not mean the soft liberal establishment--although one has some ideas which, if tested, may be shown to work. Let me give an illustration. Some 1,800 people a year used to die as a result of people drinking above the legal limit and driving. That is two and a half times more than the number of murder victims a year in this country. In terms of gaps in families, the
criminal activity of drink-driving caused more misery and avoidable tragedy than all the murders that had been committed. That figure of 1,800 people a year killed by drink-driving is now down to about 500. Although the figure is still far too high, it is less than a third of what it was at its peak. There was no change in the criminal law during the period over which the figure diminished from 1,800, to 1,200, to 600, to what it is at present. There was no change in sentencing, enforcement or penalty. It happened because of a change of culture.One lesson to be learned from that example is that a change of culture can make a difference. I believe that the crime rate was low between the wars not because of different levels of unemployment, or because there are now more radio-cassette players for people to steal, or because of drugs, but partly because during that period many more younger people took part in worthwhile activities. The growth of organisations such as the Woodcraft Folk, the Boys Brigade, the scouts and brownies involved many younger people as youth leaders. Many more, whether they lived in rich or poor areas, in social housing, privately rented or owner-occupied accommodation, were involved in two or three worthwhile activities a week, such as sport and drama.
I believe that if we did a study at juvenile courts and saw who was persistently in trouble with the law, it would tend to be people who did not know what they would be doing, on a regular basis, a week or even two weeks ahead. I am not arguing that many of us got through our teenage years without doing anything wrong, but the difference between most of those who are persistently in trouble and those who are not lies in the confidence and competence of parents to provide meaningful activities for their children.
I pay tribute to the Peabody Trust; this afternoon, I attended, as an observer, one of its community development meetings. In the housing for which the trust takes on responsibility, sometimes from local authorities, it tries to find easy ways to combat people's fear of crime--for example, by ensuring that there is a lock on the rubbish chute lockers, so that people do not go in there to inject heroin; and that people can go in and out of their own front door without being worried.
I congratulate the Government on their announcement that child prostitutes will be considered to be victims rather than criminals. When I was chairman of the Church of England Children's Society, we tried to work with partnerships in some of the most difficult areas. Children in care were often both victims of crime and those who subsequently became criminals. We failed those children of the state in so many ways. If we can offer some hope to the children for whom we have responsibility--either through local authorities or nationally--we shall also give the rest of our children a better chance.
It is not possible to go into detail about some of the most important matters. However, if we took a liberal establishment view, we should take account of the figures to which I referred--the 2,400 a week or the 30 per cent. of men who have been convicted by the age of 30. We should learn more about people's experiences in jail--especially those of younger people. When I visit prisons and listen to people aged under 25, it occurs to me that I might meet such people on the streets of any of our towns and they might say, "I don't want to beg, but I came out of prison this morning. Can you tell me where to find a bed tonight and a job interview tomorrow?" Until we can
give an answer to that question in every part of the country, people leaving jail will not have the chance that they deserve.I do not believe in being soft. People who commit crimes should be caught--early. We could adopt further measures to reduce the consequences of what may have started as mild bad behaviour. I offer an example from Worthing. Recently, some people--I suspect they had been drinking in public--went to an alley behind some shops and lit a fire. The fire melted a gas pipe, causing a conflagration in which two shops were burnt out. In my view, there was also a failure to use proper materials for the gas supply in an exposed area--plastic pipe may be all right underground, but not in the open, where there may be rubbish. We need to learn lessons from that.
We should also learn lessons about visible policing. The Home Secretary can make a decent speech. I suspect that he and I might agree on some elements of his responsibilities. However, when his ears go red, I think that he is talking to the gallery rather than to those who share his concerns. At present, they are not red. Sometimes, when the right hon. Gentleman raises his voice, we can be fairly sure that he is trying to mislead his Back Benchers and, possibly, the Opposition. It does not always work.
Anything that the Home Office says about statistics on policing or about the last Government should be checked by the director of the Office for National Statistics--as, indeed, should any similar statements from the Department of Health and the Prime Minister. The Government should say whether they mean that the figures apply from 1979 or from 1992--the Home Secretary is rising to adopt my suggestion.
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