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Mr. McNamara: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We were under instructions that Back Bench speeches could take only so much time. If the hon. Gentleman qualifies as a Front Bencher, does that not also apply to my hon. Friend the Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon), whose speech was stopped?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The understanding in the House has always been that, under Standing Orders,
the exemption from time limits extends only to the spokesman for the Liberal Democrat party and to no one else.
Mr. Öpik: For once, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I feel special. Thank you.
Mr. MacKay: Make the most of it.
Mr. Öpik: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his support.
The Patten report expressed hope that the new policing board would be considerably stronger than the Police Authority which it replaced. However, the Bill assigns many powers to the Secretary of State and the Chief Constable, rather than the Board. We agree that the Secretary of State needs to have a role in policing, and would like a Justice Minister in the Assembly to carry out those functions. We have a strategic concern about the proposed future structure and are anxious that the relationship between the Secretary of State, the Chief Constable and the board is out of balance and favours the Secretary of State.
Recommendation 26 of the Patten report specified that the policing board should have the power to initiate
- an inquiry into any aspect of the police service or police conduct. Depending on the circumstances, the Board should have the option to request the Police Ombudsman, the Inspectorate of Constabulary or the Audit Office to conduct or contribute to such an inquiry, or to use the Board's own staff, or even private consultants for such a purpose.
None the less, I welcome the Secretary of State's assurance that he is reviewing the opportunities for the board to call an inquiry. I shall not dwell on the matter here, but it requires clarification, as those who think that the board is insufficiently powerful are nervous about its influence in such areas.
The police authority was responsible for setting objectives and targets in a police plan. Under the Bill, the new board will be responsible only for setting targets for objectives established elsewhere. The Secretary of State has the power to make regulations on the content of the annual policing plan--which, again, makes the holder of that office very powerful in relation to the board, not least because under the Bill, the Chief Constable need only "have regard" to the policing plan. We believe that it would be better if he were required to adhere to it, except when the board gives its approval for him not to do so.
Similarly, under the Bill, responsibility for accounts and audit has been transferred from the police authority to the Chief Constable, not to the board. Given the lack of statutory reference to a chief executive or a secretary to the board, one can only conclude that the Chief Constable is to perform both those roles, so there will be a huge centralisation of power in that position. A privately run business would have no problem with that, but we are discussing a publicly accountable organisation. That is our primary reason for being concerned that the power is
over-centralised in two individuals, rather than being devolved to the board. I look forward to the Minister's reply on that subject.There have been many discussions about names, and, as everyone knows, I support the title "The Northern Ireland Police Department". However, I am a realist and, although you have given me leave to make a Front-Bench speech, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I do not believe that I could muster the necessary votes for my proposal. Nevertheless, it seems inappropriate for Her Majesty's Opposition to push for a reasoned amendment on a tactical issue that is primarily of symbolic importance. Were they to succeed in mustering enough votes for that, it would mean an end to the Bill. We would not move forward at all on the Patten proposals, whether such a step were faulty or not.
Will the right hon. Member for Bracknell reconsider? Are his concerns so great that he cannot wait for the Bill's Committee stage? That, I believe, is the appropriate point at which to raise an issue on which, no doubt, we shall spend a lot of time. Does he really need to register a vote against the whole Bill when he himself has said, and others have reiterated, that there is much in it that the Opposition support?
Similarly, the Opposition's concern about involving ex-prisoners who were imprisoned as a result of the conflict is valid, but the issue has a far deeper significance than the simple concern about having ex-cons involved in the process. We must bear it in mind that about 15,000 people in the nationalist community have, at some time, been prisoners, and would therefore be excluded from the process if ex-prisoners were not allowed to participate.
Mr. Mallon: We must be very careful about this point. The Bill refers to scheduled offences. More than 90 per cent. of people convicted of a scheduled offence over the years were guilty of parking their car in the wrong place--that was a scheduled offence. I sincerely hope that the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that a person of good will who happened to park his or her car in the wrong place should not, under the Bill, be allowed to serve in a police partnership.
Mr. Öpik: I can relate to the hon. Gentleman's point, because I got a parking ticket last week.
Mr. Mallon: That was not a scheduled offence.
Mr. Öpik: That is true. Of course I reassure the hon. Gentleman that I agree with him: I am saying that I am concerned about the fact that people convicted of scheduled offences will be excluded from being independent members of a DPP. Those seeking to be political members will be allowed to proceed even if they have fallen foul of the scheduled offences rule, but independent candidates will not.
Mr. Robert McCartney: One of the people whom we hope will be excluded was in the Lobby of the House today. I refer to Mr. Gerry Kelly, who planted the bomb at the Old Bailey, killed three people--one was an anaesthetist--and shot a guard in making his escape. I hope that the hon. Gentleman would agree that such a person should be excluded.
Mr. Öpik: I am saying that this is a more sophisticated debate than can be covered in a reasoned amendment.
We have already seen that there are two, or perhaps more, strongly held views on this issue. [Hon. Members: "What is yours?"] I ask hon. Members to listen; they will then hear my view. Many of the people whom we are discussing have played an integral role in moving us from the bad old days to the relatively peaceful present. I happened to speak to Gerry Kelly today, and I believe that there must be a proper debate rather than the emotive reaction of automatically excluding such people from the political process.
Mr. Peter Robinson (Belfast, East): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Öpik: Yes, but then I will take no further interventions.
Mr. Robinson: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will refine his opinion when I tell him that the BBC in Northern Ireland is running as its lead story this evening the involvement of the Provisional IRA in the killing of Edmund McCoy 10 days ago in Dunmurry.
Mr. Öpik: I shall go further: I am happy to refine and clarify my view on the basis of a sensible debate in Committee to decide who should be involved in the process and who should not. If we need evidence that there is this very debate to be had, we can consider what has happened in the Chamber in the past few minutes. Sometimes it is hard for people to entertain the possibility that on this matter there is a view different from their own, because, for understandable reasons, it provokes strong feelings.
I do not necessarily ask hon. Members to accept my view, and I stress again that I am willing to refine my view on the basis of argument, because, as the Secretary of State said, we must keep an open mind on these important issues. I simply ask hon. Members to recognise that there must be a debate, and we will not have that debate if we simply try to shout each other down or find reasons not to listen to alternative views before rejecting them.
As for the Patten proposals, as the hon. Members for Newry and Armagh and for Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) have said, we have to be consistent on them. At times the Government have said that they cannot do x or y because it is not a Patten recommendation. If that is the case, they must be true to his recommendations throughout. However, for understandable reasons the Government have chosen not to proceed with various of the recommendations. The process is either pick-and-mix or it is not. It will be simpler if it is not pick-and-mix, but I suspect that Ministers have taken a different view. If so, they cannot argue that proposals made in the House that are not in the Patten report, such as a change in the quota process, are not acceptable because they are not in the report. Each proposal must be decided on its merit.
Most hon. Members want the Bill to be passed, and I hope that our amendments in Committee will be seen as contributing to improving the Bill. I hope also that we will be able to discuss these matters constructively, and that in doing so we have a good opportunity to listen to the views of different parties. We can then make an informed decision. The most dangerous thing that we could do would be to entrench ourselves in existing views,
which have been rehearsed here many times, and have rarely led to progress such as movement by any side in the process.I hope that we will use the Bill as a way to move forward, perhaps beyond its current contents to measures that are much closer to Patten's full recommendations. Liberal Democrats hope to make a positive contribution, and we sometimes make remarks that people find uncomfortable because we believe them to be right or because sometimes it is important for individual Members to break taboos to get to the truth. If that is the spirit of the debate, it will be constructive. I hope more than anything else that by doing so we can improve the quality of policing in Northern Ireland, and thus also the quality of life.
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