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Mr. Maginnis: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Sir Brian Mawhinney: No. I have only five minutes. I will go on.
I would be somewhat concerned about attaching too much attention to those points. Having said that, the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to hear me say that, underneath
that disgraceful behaviour, there was a core of solid, respectable, loyal, law-abiding Unionists who attached themselves to the state, who gave significance to their British citizenship and who saw the RUC and policing issues in that context. If the hon. Gentleman had allowed me to make that point without interruption, I would have gone on to say that I agreed with much of what he said.The point I am making to the Secretary of State is that we are in danger of getting politicised, at a time when there is an opportunity to move away from politicisation. In that regard, I have particular concern about clause 15 and the district policing partnerships. I understand why they are there. I understand the importance that he attaches to them, but they are a recipe for considerable political mischief, as are clause 43 and the quotas.
The Secretary of State got lumbered with the Bill as part of the Good Friday agreement. It would have been better if it had not been part of the agreement and if there had been a separate but parallel determination to deal with policing issues, but he is lumbered and it is now politicised.
I say something to the Secretary of State that he has heard me say before. He has two options. He can use his considerable political skills, to duck and weave, zig and zag and produce an Act that satisfies no one; or he might decide to go ahead, to implement the 80 to 90 per cent. of the Bill that should be implemented, then to draw on the political strength of arrangements that are in place and will get better with the passage of time, and use that political strength some time in the future to implement the rest of Patten as Patten was written. I fail to see how an Act that ultimately satisfies no one will aid him as he seeks to develop the peace process.
7.15 pm
Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde): As I look around the Chamber, I think that I am just about the only Member who has ever served in a police force with the prefix "Royal". I refer to the Royal Military police. I say to some of the hon. Gentlemen across the way that some of those who campaign to retain the title "Royal Ulster Constabulary" remind me of some of the campaigners who sought to retain the titles of our ancient regiments and warned of all sorts of dire consequences over the amalgamations that successfully took place.
I thank the Secretary of State for his response to my question concerning what I see as the inferior role of the policing board vis-a-vis the Chief Constable and the Secretary of State. I will study his answer with care tomorrow, but I am grateful for his response and hope that that indicates--as some of his other responses did--that he will be open-minded when we come to amend the Bill in Committee and on Report. The Bill needs it; it needs radical amending.
Among many other things, the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis) talked about the need to bring Northern Ireland more closely into kilter with other nations and regions of the United Kingdom. One way of doing that, if that is what he seeks to achieve, is by normalising the police service in Northern Ireland. I need hardly remind him that, in my part of Scotland, the chief constable is responsible to the police board, which is made up of local representatives from the councils that make up Strathclyde. The legislation for that police force and for the policing in Scotland is devolved to the Scottish Parliament.
I have done this before: I, too, offer my tributes to the many brave members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. In preparation for the debate, I sought to meet as many as I could. I met members of the Police Federation, widows of RUC officers and disabled officers.
I offer my compliments to the federation's members for taking their case to Dublin, where I met them again. They themselves said that they had had a fair hearing from the Taoiseach, his colleagues and officials. I have listened to their understandable concerns about what they see as the unintended--as well as intended--consequences of police reform, but, in all those meetings, I said that I supported the case for radical police reform.
In the time that I have available, I want to offer a couple of criticisms of the Bill and to ask the Secretary of State a couple of questions with which I hope that he will deal. As has been said, Patten and his colleagues argued for a new beginning to policing in Northern Ireland. As hon. Friends have said, we must aim to enact legislation that will allow leaders in both communities to say to young people, if they are of a mind, "You can pursue a career, a fine and decent career, in the police service--in that area of public service." I can say that to young men and women in my constituency and I hope that the day will dawn when Members in both communities can say the same to their young people.
The Bill falls short of that aim, particularly in the requirement for democratic accountability and impartiality. Despite what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said about the policing board, it will be the junior partner in its relationship with the Chief Constable and the Secretary of State. I want the policing board to be strengthened.
It is essential that Mrs. O'Loan, the police ombudsman, should be given unrestricted access to information that she believes is germane to any investigation that she initiates. Clause 61 needs to be amended to enable her to conduct examinations efficiently and effectively--a familiar phrase to us all. At the least, the word "reasonably" should be struck out of the clause. Part VII, which is concerned with the role of the ombudsman, needs to be amended. As she goes about her work, she must have due regard to the public interest as she sees it. Similarly, she must be actively engaged in the drafting of a code of ethics. The role of the ombudsman is critical to the creation of a new and widely respected police service. That important role has to be acknowledged in the Bill.
There are many other concerns, including the three-year review. It has to be a thorough-going analysis that leads to prescriptions for the improvement of procedures. The 10-year date must be checked again, as must the question of aggregation. As a frequent visitor to Northern Ireland, I have serious concerns about the subject. My right hon. Friend should give serious consideration to a new oath incorporating a commitment to full respect for the traditions and beliefs of both communities, as recommended by Patten. He should ensure that the substance of the oath is applicable to all serving officers, as well as to the new recruits who I hope will come forward from both communities.
Patten recommended that district policing partnerships should meet in public. The Bill does not provide for that, but I think that they should do so wherever and whenever possible to uphold the principles of local accountability.
Patten also recommended that the recruitment agency should be able to target Catholics originally from Northern Ireland but working in police services outwith Northern Ireland. I know that there are some in Scotland. He also recommended lateral entry of such experienced officers. That could be used as a tool to ensure representativeness at senior levels of the police service. I hope that my right hon. Friend will assure us that the recruitment agency will be able to target such personnel.
- it is not satisfactory to suggest, as some people have, that one should somehow accept that every organisation has . . . "bad apples." They should be dealt with.
Finally, I shall address some of my pet concerns. If we are to have new policing and want to talk about badges and changing the design of the uniform, which needs to be redesigned--I think that Patten is wrong on that--why not change the colour of the uniform? All the police forces round about, including Strathclyde and the Garda Siochana, have blue uniforms. The new police service in Northern Ireland should also have a blue uniform. Given that the words "Royal Ulster" strike such a resonance with some Opposition Members, if they cannot accept the Patten recommendation for a new title, why not call it the Northern Ireland constabulary? We have the Fyfe constabulary in Scotland, so why not the Northern Ireland constabulary? We need a police Act that enables people in both communities to believe that they can follow a good career in the police service.
7.25 pm
Mr. Peter Robinson (Belfast, East): This is a rotten Bill. Future generations will rise up and curse the name of the Secretary of State for having introduced a Bill that rewards terrorists and punishes the police service. It is a sad and ugly irony that on the day that the police in Northern Ireland have given details to the BBC's security correspondent of their investigations into the murder of a man in Dunmurry 10 days ago at the hands of the Provisional IRA, the Secretary of State has introduced a Bill asking us to put on to police boards and partnerships throughout the Province people who are tied to the organisation that carried out that killing.
No doubt, under the Bill, there will be a choice of former and present IRA army council members for membership of the new police board. In the partnerships across Northern Ireland, there will be a choice of many activists and leading members of Provisional IRA. It will be of no comfort to the community in Northern Ireland that the Secretary of State is prepared to proceed with a Bill that will bring the Provisional IRA a role in policing in Northern Ireland even though they are still active in terrorism there. What confidence can that give to the people of Northern Ireland? It will give no confidence to the people of the community that I represent.
The Bill is the child of the Belfast agreement, as well as of the Patten commission report. Those who negotiated the Belfast agreement, those who signed it, those who went out into the roads of Northern Ireland and asked people to support it and those who voted for it in the referendum have cost us dearly in terms of the future
policing of Northern Ireland. Whatever one might say about Patten, he faithfully represented the remit given to him in the Belfast agreement. There is no getting away from the fact that that agreement gave explicit and detailed instructions to the Patten commission. Those who were involved in the Belfast agreement cannot wash their hands of the destruction of the RUC under the Bill. The genealogy is clear and damning.Many words of praise and tribute to the Royal Ulster Constabulary have been spoken. The right hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire (Sir B. Mawhinney) suggested that anyone who has ever criticised any action of the Royal Ulster Constabulary was not entitled to support its continuation and maintenance. It has been used on many occasions to uphold a political decision. That is a fact of life and we all know it. The fact that many people have disagreed with those political decisions and made known their opposition to them in no way undermines or diminishes their regard or support for the Royal Ulster Constabulary.
I have many members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary in my family. The force has acted with distinction through all its years of service in Northern Ireland, and has acted efficiently and even-handedly. It has acted with gallantry and devotion, and it has been punished by this Government for the many sacrifices that it has made.
The reality is that over 300 RUC members were murdered in this campaign of terrorism. Thousands of its members have been maimed and mutilated. Many will bear the scars of terrorism upon them for the remainder of their days. While the RUC is to be destroyed under this Bill, the IRA remains intact. While all the operational effectiveness of policing is to be diminished under the Bill, the IRA still holds on to its arms, its bombs and its operational capacity. That is the reality. What kind of topsy-turvy world is it when this House--the cradle of democracy and the mother of Parliaments--decides to reward terrorists and to punish those who are responsible for the exercise and functions of law and order?
I had expected this evening that the right hon. Member for Strangford (Mr. Taylor) would be here. I was hoping that, during his remarks, he would produce from his inside pocket the letter with which he tantalised the Ulster Unionist council and which he indicated had been of such profound significance that it had caused him to move from being a sceptic to a supporter during that famous occasion only a Saturday or so ago.
The indication was that the right hon. Gentleman was not satisfied with the assurances that he had received earlier that week. However, the contents of the piece of paper in his pocket--I am not sure whether it was from the Secretary of State, who may want to make a confession, the Prime Minister or Leo--were of such significance that they caused the right hon. Gentleman not only to vote in favour of the restoration of the Executive, but to advise and encourage others to do so.
If the Secretary of State has given some assurances, undertakings, commitments or promises to the right hon. Member for Strangford in that grubby little piece of paper in his inside pocket, the Secretary of State owes it to the House, as we debate this Bill, to divulge what those undertakings, commitments or promises may be. It would be of no service to this House if the Secretary of State held back from us some additional commitment that was not in the public arena.
I hope that, in winding up the debate, the Government representative will indicate in the clearest terms whether the right hon. Member for Strangford has in his inside jacket pocket some assurances that have not yet been announced publicly. It would be of no avail if we were to go into Committee without the opportunity to see what this matter of such importance was that caused the Damascus road experience of the right hon. Member for Strangford.
I will oppose this Bill at every possible stage. The people of Northern Ireland deserve better from this Government. The people of Northern Ireland have a right to be proud of the RUC and want to continue to give support to it, no matter from what section of the community they may come. It is an organisation with a fine tradition; an organisation whose bonds have been cemented by the many sacrifices that have been made. This House will do a disservice to the RUC if it disregards the service it has given.
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