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8.7 pm

Mr. Mike Gapes (Ilford, South): I do not want to pursue the apocalyptic rejectionist vision that we have just heard. I want to talk about the difficulties of policing in any democratic society. There is no such thing as an ideal world in which to police. The police have to deal on a day-to-day basis with traffic problems, neighbour disputes, crime, robbery, violence and drunkenness. In Northern Ireland they have to deal with other matters as well. The Patten report was produced not just with those other matters in mind, and I do not think that we should spend the whole of this debate talking just about those matters.

The Bill, and the Patten report on which it is based, which, as the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) pointed out earlier, came out of the Good Friday agreement, are about improving the system of policing in Northern Ireland, as well as dealing with the wider questions of legitimacy and the involvement of the whole community.

The Bill has been introduced because the commission was set up

to make recommendations for future policing arrangements in Northern Ireland including means of encouraging widespread community support for these arrangements . . .

It was set up to make recommendations, not to make conclusions that the Government had to accept lock, stock and barrel. There is a danger of cherry-picking, and I therefore have some sympathy with the right hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire (Sir B. Mawhinney), who referred to this earlier. However, it is important to recognise that the Government have to take account of the reactions, consultation process and discussions that there have been since the Patten report was published.

The report deals with a large area under the heading "Culture, Ethos and Symbols". Paragraph 17.6 states:

In our judgment that new beginning cannot be achieved unless the reality that part of the community feels unable to identify with the present name and symbols associated with the police is

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addressed. Like the unique constitutional arrangements, our proposals seek to achieve a situation in which people can be British, Irish or Northern Irish, as they wish, and all regard the police service as their own.

That must be the basis for our way forward. Otherwise, that persistent problem will continue to bedevil policing in Northern Ireland.

I speak as a London Member of Parliament. We know that in our city we have not managed to recruit ethnic minority police officers. One third of my constituents are members of ethnic minorities, but only a small number are police officers. After the Macpherson report, the Metropolitan police service designed measures to deal with that. We have not done all that we need to do and there is still a problem.

I refer to that, because in Northern Ireland, it could well be that, even though the top people in the police service are committed to change and to the new agenda--as they have been for many years--nevertheless a canteen culture has developed that makes it difficult to implement those changes locally. For that reason, I hope that the question of the oath is reconsidered in Committee. We need to challenge the persistent old-style canteen culture, which could act as an impediment to what the leadership of the police service, the Government and the Assembly are trying to achieve throughout society.

Another problem that affects society throughout the world is that, in some communities, it is not acceptable for people to co-operate with the police--that is not encouraged. That is certainly true in some areas of London and other big cities. As Patten stated in paragraph 17.9:

The aim must be that the police service should recruit not only more Catholics, but nationalists (of whom there are some but not many at the moment) and republicans (of whom there are almost certainly none now); and that there should be many more women, and, we hope, also more members from ethnic minorities and greater tolerance of sexual diversity.

That is an important part of the report. It is not enough to recruit Catholics only from areas where they are under no pressure. We shall be able to say that the police service in Northern Ireland represents the whole community only when people from the Shankill and the Falls, from north and east Belfast, from Derry--from Londonderry--can join that police service while continuing to live and to be accepted in their own communities, where they went to school.

Unfortunately, there have been several occasions over the years when people have had to leave their homes because they were terrorised--burnt out and driven out--and their families were threatened. The obligation on this place, on everyone in Northern Ireland and on all those who signed the Good Friday agreement is to encourage people to join the new service and to ensure that, when they do so, they do not have to leave their communities because of that fear of intimidation that has occurred in the past.

It was interesting to see members of the RUC helping in Kosovo and to see British and Irish police officers working together in conflict areas throughout the world--for example, in Palestine. The Department for International Development and the Home Office are supporting training schemes whereby British, Irish and Northern Irish policemen and women are making a major contribution to instituting best practice throughout the world. That is good. Let us hope that, in future, there will

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be best practice in all parts of Northern Ireland and the UK; that we shall learn from diversity and that we shall reflect all communities in our police service.

8.15 pm

Mr. Jeffrey Donaldson (Lagan Valley): I have grave concerns about the Bill. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Woodward) is leaving the Chamber. As someone who represents a large constituency in Northern Ireland, I have to say that the hon. Gentleman's contribution to the debate was condescending in the extreme and insulting.

I represent many people in Northern Ireland--many young people. I happen to be the youngest Member of Parliament who represents a Northern Ireland constituency. Many young RUC officers and their families live in my constituency. The hon. Member for Witney has not listened to what those young people are saying. They find what is happening to the Royal Ulster Constabulary deeply hurtful, painful and insulting. He may have observed the events of the past 30 years from afar--I lived and breathed them. My family lived and breathed them.

The hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) spoke earlier. Two members of my family were carried out of his constituency--members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, murdered by the Provisional IRA. What is their sacrifice worth today? We are told that the name of the RUC is not in tablets of stone. With respect, it is on the tablets of stone that litter the graveyards of Northern Ireland.

I have talked to the widows--many of them; I have talked to the disabled police officers and to the families of the officers who gave their lives. They find what the Government are doing deeply hurtful. Let us not swipe them aside as though they matter nothing--as though their views do not count; or as though some greater good means that they are not entitled to have their voice heard. Nor should the views of Ulster Unionist Members, who represent those people, be swept aside, as though they do not count either--because they do.

Mr. Patten told us that his objective was to achieve a police service that could command widespread community support. Do the thousands of people in my constituency whom I represent not count when we add up that widespread community support? Do the people represented by my hon. Friends not count? Of course they do. I ask the Government and all hon. Members who support the Bill to consider how they will achieve widespread community support when many decent people in Northern Ireland--law-abiding people who have stood by the police and supported them through thick and thin--cannot support the Patten proposals. Where will the widespread community support come from?

We have heard quotations from the Chief Constable and others, but the Police Federation for Northern Ireland, which represents ordinary police officers, has a clear view. The federation opposes the name change and has said so. Its magazine, "Police Beat", states that

the deepest hurt of all is the removal of our proud title.

I have met many RUC officers of all ranks who find that proposition unacceptable.

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A petition of 400,000 signatures calling for the retention of the name of the Royal Ulster Constabulary was presented to No. 10 Downing street. Yes, we have had surveys, but the reality is that we have heard the voices of the people. They have spoken in election after election; a clear majority, represented by Ulster Unionist Members, finds the Patten proposals objectionable. However, it seems that we do not form part of the new consensus on widespread community support.

The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis) has supported the Belfast agreement but, like me, he objects to many aspects of the Patten report. Although we have a difference of opinion about the agreement, there is a broad consensus in my party about many aspects of Patten, including on the removal of the name of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. The fudge that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has come up with, which is about incorporating the words "Royal Ulster Constabulary" in the title deeds, simply will not do. That does not mean retaining the name of the RUC as a working title for the police service.

We have heard much about recruitment. I am a member of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee and I listened to the comments of the Committee Chairman, the right hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Brooke). He spoke about the contribution that had been made by Labour Members to the Committee's report, which called for the retention of the Royal Ulster Constabulary's name and insignia. The hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. McWalter) shakes his head, but I suggest that he read the Committee report to which he was a party. He will see that it concluded that the name and the symbol should be retained. That is a matter of fact and of record. However, it now seems that Labour Members have changed their view.

We are told that the Bill will lead to more recruitment of Roman Catholics and I want that to happen. The Select Committee report called for that and we set out what I thought were reasonable, fair and balanced proposals that could achieve that aim. However, we should not underplay the efforts of the Provisional IRA and the impact that it has had on the recruitment of Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland to the Royal Ulster Constabulary. People can down play that fact all they want, but that is the reality and Roman Catholic officers who were courageous and joined the RUC were specifically targeted by the Provisional IRA. They were singled out for special attention and their families were targeted. That was a major deterrent against young Roman Catholics joining the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

The hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) referred to the murder in my constituency just over a week ago of Mr. Edmund McCoy. It now appears from the RUC that that murder was carried out by the Provisional IRA. No doubt, the Government will take their customary approach and turn a blind eye to the murder. Terrorist prisoners will continue to be released in spite of what the legislation passed by this Parliament says and Mr. McCoy's murder will go unnoticed. I am aware of Mr. McCoy's background but, whatever it was, it does not justify the Provisional IRA taking the law into its own hands and murdering him in cold blood.

However, that is the IRA's idea of justice just as its idea of justice is what it did to the young man who is lying in a hospital in west Belfast, his body scourged by the Provisional IRA. He was beaten to a pulp and left for

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dead--that is IRA justice. However, we now want to put its members on to the police board. What standards will that set? What about the district policing partnerships and the potential for influence from paramilitaries through their political representatives? I am concerned about that and the shape of the district policing partnership in west Belfast and the influence that it will have in that area. What safeguards will we have to ensure that paramilitaries do not have an undue influence on policing in such areas?

There has been talk of downsizing the Royal Ulster Constabulary. The local police commanders to whom I have spoken are finding it difficult to cope at the moment with present levels of policing, so I am not sure how they will cope if police numbers are reduced significantly. We are told that we are bringing the RUC into line with other parts of the United Kingdom, but problems that are unique and distinct to Northern Ireland have not gone away. Dissident republican terrorism and loyalist terrorism continue and are a problem. I hope that the Government will give a firm commitment that they will retain the strength of the Royal Ulster Constabulary for as long as it is needed to combat the threat of violence and the levels of violence that exist in Northern Ireland.

Car theft, joy riding, murder and beatings all continue. In my constituency, I see that everyday. Thieving emerges from west Belfast, thieves steal cars in Lisburn, Moira and Dunmurry and they attack property. They can get away with that because police commanders do not have the personnel on the ground. The Government's policy of not recruiting does not help.

I also appeal to the Government on behalf of the RUC Reserve. It is important that it be treated with equity and fairness in the process. It did a good job, it was professional and it acted with integrity. It should not be given a raw deal at the end of the process.

I want to finish--

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