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Mr. Mallon: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Robathan: I fear that I cannot.
It is wishful thinking to believe that Sinn Fein and the IRA will change; there is no evidence or experience to show that they will. By emasculating the RUC, we are pursuing the IRA's aims.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin): Order.
8.46 pm
Mr. Tony McWalter (Hemel Hempstead): One of the joys of speaking relatively late in the debate is that, although most of what I was thinking of saying may have been said already, it provides an opportunity to consider carefully the main lines of opposition to the Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr. Woodward) said, the debate is not only about trying to give the Bill a following wind and a Second Reading, but about trying to achieve as much rapprochement as possible with those who feel deeply uneasy or hostile about it.
I am struck by the fact that the efforts and impetus of those Opposition Members who have opposed the Bill in this debate and a previous one on an Opposition motion come back to their attitude to the decision in Patten report to put history to one side. That is a brave decision by Patten, but it has unquestionably created absolute fury among Unionist Members. They claim that putting history to one side means that the signal courage and achievements of the RUC are also put to one side.
If we are to revisit history and ignore Patten's advice, we must do so even-handedly. We cannot incorporate into whatever arrangements we make a large chunk of Unionist history but very little nationalist history. Even-handedness is an absolutely vital part of the method of achieving progress. I shall spend some time on the history because, last year, I had the pleasure of talking for the last time to my then 97-year-old Uncle Tom, who died a couple of weeks ago at the age of 98 and a half. My cricket was never good enough to make a century, but I had hoped that either my Uncle Tom or my Uncle John, who died at the same age, might have done so. They moved away from Galway--which shows which side of the debate they were on--in 1926. The fact that someone's name or point of origin shows which side he or she supports is part of the issue. My uncles moved to America from a shattered and fragmented land that had been at civil war, but they never forgot it.
I listened to music from what passed for a record player in my old uncle's house and he played a song called "Four Green Fields". The four green fields were the provinces of Ireland, and the song said:
- Each one was a jewel.
'Till strangers came,
and tried to take them from me.
I have heard a lot of talk about the word "royal", but nobody in southern Ireland cares about it because it poses no threat to nationalists. However, in Northern Ireland it is considered by nationalists to be a symbol of their crushing defeat, as is the word "Ulster". Historically, Ulster was one of the four green fields and had nine counties, so the nationalist side viewed its incorporation in the RUC's title as triumphalist: "We can even redefine the historic provinces of Ireland if we feel like it. We can redefine who has a vote in the new Ulster and who has not. The old Ulster would have contained too many Catholics."
History is often held too deeply in Ireland. People relive it instead of using it to establish a heritage that they can cherish and from which they can work to recognise other people's concerns in a way that the old Irish debate never did. My uncle's generation was wrong to think that Unionists were strangers; they of course had every right to be regarded as British and Irish. Equally, those in the new Ulster who had absolutely no time for those old people did not understand what caused their hostility to the embodiments of what they regarded as the British conquest.
Many members of my family were serving police officers. Several joined the Garda Siochana, but they would not have joined the Royal Ulster Constabulary. Alas, those in the older generation communicated that feeling to later generations; they had no time for the RUC, which they regarded as imposing illegitimate and unjust law. However, that is not our analysis, because our analysis is that it is possible to achieve an inclusive Northern Ireland. A fundamental prerequisite to that is an inclusive Northern Ireland police force.
The Select Committee did not call for the retention of the title "Royal Ulster Constabulary", but in 1998 we were willing to live with that as the first stage of the move to the inclusive new police force. However, at the last minute, there was a division over flags. Nothing much changes. The instruments of history cannot be presented to us again and again.
Patten was right to say that we must seek a fresh start and a new beginning for an inclusive police force in Northern Ireland that everyone in that community will own. I sincerely hope that those who want to pull a little history into our debate recognise the dangers of reactions against that beginning and accept that we should work with Patten's ideas in this important Bill.
War is made in the minds of men and women. We have moved so far that the previous generation's attitude to war has become less prevalent in the new Northern Ireland. I sincerely hope that the next generation in that country will see the real benefits of legislation such as the Bill.
8.56 pm
Mr. William Thompson (West Tyrone): As we approach the end of our debate, we have covered much in relation to the police of Northern Ireland and the Bill. I have the advantage of sitting on this side of the House. I come from Northern Ireland and have lived there all my life. I live in a predominantly nationalist area and represent a predominantly nationalist constituency. Indeed, for the past 30 years, I have conducted a business the majority of whose customers are Roman Catholics and
nationalists. Unlike some others, I can therefore speak with experience of the real situation in Northern Ireland. I sometimes think that it is presumptuous of people to lecture me on what is best for Northern Ireland.We have been here before. In the early 1970s, the Hunt commission recommended great changes to the RUC. It wanted their guns to be taken away, said that they were to act like ordinary English bobbies, and so on. At least Hunt had some sense, as he recognised that a change in the RUC's name would offend more than it would appease. Nothing much has changed since then.
We have sat here many times as various Governments recommended wonderful changes to bring utopia to Northern Ireland, despite the opposition of the majority of those Members of Parliament who come from there. It seems that everyone's views are recognised, except those of the majority of Northern Ireland's elected Members, whose opinions--whatever people say--are ignored and overridden.
I have been associated with the Royal Ulster Constabulary for many years and am proud of its members and their sacrifices. Unfortunately, I have sometimes had to walk behind the coffin at their funerals, after policemen have been murdered by the IRA. Close to my home are many graveyards in which there are policemen murdered by the IRA. In my experience, I have never found any great antipathy in the nationalist community to the Royal Ulster Constabulary. Had the SDLP asked the nationalist community to support and join the Royal Ulster Constabulary, there would be many more Roman Catholics in the RUC today.
There are two basic political reasons why Roman Catholics did not join the RUC. The nationalist community would not look kindly on them if they did so, especially when the nationalist political party was opposed to that. In addition, Catholics who joined the RUC were subject to intimidation, and many were unable ever to come home again. That is why there are so few Roman Catholics in the RUC. However, if they had more support from their political leaders, plenty of them would join. Many young people would be delighted to join because it is a good, well-paid job, and they could rest assured that they would be rushed to the top.
Once again, a name change is recommended. The IRA and Sinn Fein hate the Royal Ulster Constabulary, and we have listened to Bairbre de Brun's remarks about it. They are determined to destroy it, as they destroyed the B Specials, the Ulster Defence Regiment and other organisations, and now they have the opportunity to do so because they have the Secretary of State over a barrel. The success of the Bill's recommendation that nationalists join the RUC depends on the SDLP and on Sinn Fein. However, Sinn Fein says that it will not make that recommendation unless it gets all the changes recommended by Patten. Even then, it will not recommend that nationalists join the future police service of Northern Ireland.
I would be surprised if Sinn Fein ever made that recommendation because, irrespective of the changes to the name or the service, one thing that will not change is that it represents the British Government in Northern Ireland. It will therefore be difficult, if not impossible, for Sinn Fein ever to recommend that nationalists or republicans join the new police service.
The RUC will be destroyed, and even when we have the wonderful, utopian new police force, we will still find that Roman Catholics will not join. All that will be gained
is that the republican movement will have won another propaganda victory against the Unionist and British people of Northern Ireland.Unionists do not object to changes to the police that are reasonable and come about through the improving security situation. We object to the fact that the Royal Ulster Constabulary, which has served Ulster so well and been recognised by the presentation of the George Cross, will get a slap in the face. It will be done away with and replaced by a so-called police service, when there is no guarantee that any more Roman Catholics will join it, but Sinn Fein-IRA will have claimed another propaganda victory.
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