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Mr. McCartney: Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Ingram: I will come to the hon. and learned Gentleman later in my speech.
We are not doing what previous Governments have done to British regiments. The name of the RUC will be reflected fully in the Bill. It will be honoured in so many meaningful ways, not least in the RUC George Cross Foundation.
Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East): Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Ingram: The hon. Gentleman has just walked into the debate.
Dr. Lewis: I have been here for half an hour.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The Minister is not giving way. That should be enough for the hon. Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis)--[Interruption.] Order. The hon. Gentleman should not argue with me.
Mr. Ingram: Will hon. Members let me develop my case? The hon. Gentleman, too, has hardly been in the Chamber during the debate. He was here at the beginning, disappeared for hours and has come back to try to be a clever lawyer. I shall restate the point that I was making in response to the speeches of the right hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster and other hon. Members.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that he believes that the sensible way forward is to provide a legal description in the Bill that incorporates the RUC--in effect, he said, in the title deeds of the new service--making it clear that disbandment is not taking place, while introducing a new name, the Police Service of Northern Ireland. That name will be used for all working and operational purposes.
Mr. Mallon: Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Ingram: I was about to turn to the speech made by the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Mallon: Will the Minister give way on that point?
Mr. Mallon: I thank the Minister for giving way. I have been trying to intervene all day. As a matter of fact, I have been trying to do so for more than a month.
Will the Minister inform us of what the title deeds of the Bill are?
Mr. Ingram: The hon. Gentleman should listen to what the Secretary of State said. That is why I referred to it. He said, in effect, the title deeds. That was a careful choice of words. [Hon. Members: "They are meaningless."] We can have hilarity or a serious debate.
I regret that the hon. Gentleman's speech was cut short, although I understand and accept the 10-minute limit. I also regret his assessment of the way the Government approached the Patten report. I do not accept his point of view. As he knows, both my right hon. Friend and I have spent many hours in close discussion with him and with members of his and other parties. We have tried to deal with their concerns. We shall continue such detailed examination in Committee, where I know his party's view will be strongly represented.
The hon. Gentleman made a telling intervention on the right hon. Member for Bracknell and pointed out the strength of feeling in large parts of the Catholic community as to the need for a change in policing. He warned the right hon. Gentleman that people who do not
live in Northern Ireland should not express paternalistic views or comments. I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman pay careful heed to those words.
Mr. MacKay: The Minister does not live in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Ingram: That is true, but I spend a considerable amount of time there--devoting much energy and effort, on behalf of the British Government, to helping people in Northern Ireland to find a way forward. I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman's paternalistic approach might not be helpful in finding a way forward.
The hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) highlighted several detailed concerns--rightly pointing out that his party had identified 44 matters. He referred particularly to powers of inquiry and to the code of ethics. In his opening speech, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that the Bill might not be perfect, but that we would consider constructive changes. However, they must be aimed at creating a modern, efficient, representative and acceptable police service. I know that the hon. Gentleman will share that sentiment.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned the inquiry power of the policing board. My right hon. Friend said that we want to strike the right balance; we are prepared to reconsider that balance and how better to refine and define it. The hon. Gentleman said that the code of ethics should apply to all officers--existing and new. That is exactly what the Bill says. Clause 30(4) states:
- In carrying out their functions the members of the police force shall have regard to the code of ethics under section 48.
I thank the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Mr. Öpik) for his considered response to the Bill. I recognise the strong views that he has about key elements of the Bill and about 50:50 representation, not least on gender and race issues. He also expressed his view on who should and should not be entitled to serve on the policing board and the district policing partnerships. As my hon. Friend the Member for Leominster (Mr. Temple- Morris) pointed out, those detailed issues are worthy of consideration in Committee.
Many of the issues that we have considered in this debate will be helped by the implementation plan, which, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said in his opening speech, was published in Belfast. The plan is now available in the Vote Office for hon. Members to consider and to develop their understanding of the Bill.
On the point that the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire made about 50:50 representation, we clearly have to take European Union directives into account, comply with them and, if it is appropriate, we may have to seek derogation. On the make-up of the board and the district policing partnerships, it is important that we do not take action that works against the grain of the new inclusive approach on which the future of Northern Ireland depends.
As the right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) has said elsewhere, the fact that someone
has a past does not mean that he cannot have a future. That must be the right approach, and I know that the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire accepts that. I hope that other hon. Members will, on reflection, consider that point. The Bill is right to contain effective safeguards as to who can and who cannot serve on the bodies in an independent capacity. It does that and, even though others may take a view on that, the Bill makes clear the process that will be involved.The hon. Gentleman also said that the Chief Constable should be required to comply with the annual policing plan. He said that he wanted the Government to go beyond Patten's recommendation and that, therefore, the board's powers should be increased under the Bill. At present, the Police Authority issues an annual plan and the Chief Constable issues a strategic plan. He then has to pay regard to the annual plan. Under the Bill, the policing board will issue both the strategic and the annual elements in a single plan and again the Chief Constable will have to have regard to that. To go further than that would infringe his operational independence. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will give further consideration to that point.
The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis), as usual, made robust arguments in support of his case. I could take issue with him on a number of detailed points, but I look forward to our debates in Committee. I do not for one minute doubt his sincerity and integrity; nor do I criticise the determination that he has shown in promoting his views and those of his community.
I recognise the role of the right hon. Member for North-West Cambridgeshire (Sir B. Mawhinney) as a former Northern Ireland Minister. He called for the Secretary of State to be radical, but it is bit difficult to accept such a suggestion from a member of the previous Conservative Administration. Anything they did was clearly of a damaging nature. As I understand it, the right hon. Gentleman called for a loosening of the powers of the Secretary of State relative to the policing board. In at least five significant areas, the Secretary of State will give powers to the policing board that do not apply to the existing Police Authority. That may or may not be radical.
I understood that I was to be given much more time to sum up. The hon. Member for Solihull (Mr. Taylor) rightly used up the time available to him, but unfortunately I am not able to deal with all the detailed issues. I look forward to their being considered in Committee. I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The House proceeded to a Division.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I instruct the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.
The House having divided: Ayes 142, Noes 342.
AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Amess, David
Ancram, Rt Hon Michael
Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James
Baldry, Tony
Beggs, Roy
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blunt, Crispin
Body, Sir Richard
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burns, Simon
Butterfill, John
Cash, William
Chope, Christopher
Clappison, James
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth
(Rushcliffe)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Collins, Tim
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cran, James
Curry, Rt Hon David
Davies, Quentin (Grantham)
Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)
Donaldson, Jeffrey
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Duncan Smith, Iain
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Evans, Nigel
Faber, David
Flight, Howard
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam
Fraser, Christopher
Gale, Roger
Garnier, Edward
Gibb, Nick
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gray, James
Green, Damian
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Gummer, Rt Hon John
Hague, Rt Hon William
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Hammond, Philip
Hawkins, Nick
Hayes, John
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas
Horam, John
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, Rt Hon Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard
Key, Robert
King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, Oliver
Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
McCartney, Robert (N Down)
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
McIntosh, Miss Anne
MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Madel, Sir David
Maginnis, Ken
Major, Rt Hon John
Maples, John
Mates, Michael
Maude, Rt Hon Francis
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian
Moss, Malcolm
Nicholls, Patrick
Norman, Archie
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paisley, Rev Ian
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Prior, David
Randall, John
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Laurence
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Ross, William (E Lond'y)
Rowe, Andrew (Faversham)
Sayeed, Jonathan
Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)
Soames, Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Streeter, Gary
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Thompson, William
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trimble, Rt Hon David
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Walker, Cecil
Walter, Robert
Waterson, Nigel
Wells, Bowen
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Yeo, Tim
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Stephen Day and
Mr. Peter Atkinson.
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allan, Richard
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Ashton, Joe
Atherton, Ms Candy
Ballard, Jackie
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Martin (Tatton)
Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)
Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)
Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Blunkett, Rt Hon David
Boateng, Rt Hon Paul
Borrow, David
Bradley, Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brake, Tom
Brinton, Mrs Helen
Browne, Desmond
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Buck, Ms Karen
Burgon, Colin
Burnett, John
Burstow, Paul
Butler, Mrs Christine
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies
(NE Fife)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, Dale
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann
Coffey, Ms Ann
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Jean
Cotter, Brian
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr Jack
(Copeland)
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Dalyell, Tam
Darvill, Keith
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Denham, John
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, Rt Hon Frank
Donohoe, Brian H
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Field, Rt Hon Frank
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flint, Caroline
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Foulkes, George
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew (St Ives)
George, Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gidley, Sandra
Gilroy, Mrs Linda
Godman, Dr Norman A
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Grogan, John
Gunnell, John
Hain, Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hanson, David
Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet
Harvey, Nick
Heal, Mrs Sylvia
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Heppell, John
Hewitt, Ms Patricia
Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, Ms Margaret
Hoon, Rt Hon Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Howells, Dr Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hume, John
Hutton, John
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Rt Hon Adam
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Miss Melanie
(Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)
Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
Keetch, Paul
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles
(Ross Skye & Inverness W)
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
Kirkwood, Archy
Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laxton, Bob
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen
Livsey, Richard
Llwyd, Elfyn
Lock, David
Love, Andrew
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCartney, Rt Hon Ian
(Makerfield)
McDonagh, Siobhain
Macdonald, Calum
McDonnell, John
McGrady, Eddie
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Mrs Rosemary
Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert
McNamara, Kevin
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Mallon, Seamus
Mandelson, Rt Hon Peter
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Martlew, Eric
Maxton, John
Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Merron, Gillian
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Milburn, Rt Hon Alan
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Moore, Michael
Moran, Ms Margaret
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle
(B'ham Yardley)
Morris, Rt Hon Sir John (Aberavon)
Mountford, Kali
Mowlam, Rt Hon Marjorie
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Oaten, Mark
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Öpik, Lembit
Organ, Mrs Diana
Palmer, Dr Nick
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Perham, Ms Linda
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris
Pope, Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prescott, Rt Hon John
Primarolo, Dawn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Rt Hon Ms Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)
Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)
Rendel, David
Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Roy, Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)
Ryan, Ms Joan
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Adrian
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Shaw, Jonathan
Shipley, Ms Debra
Short, Rt Hon Clare
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Ms Helen
Spellar, John
Squire, Ms Rachel
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stoate, Dr Howard
Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
(Dewsbury)
Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Tyler, Paul
Tynan, Bill
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Ms Claire
Wareing, Robert N
Webb, Steve
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Rt Hon Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Willis, Phil
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wood, Mike
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Tony McNulty and
Mr. David Jamieson.
Question accordingly negatived.
Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time:--
The House divided: Ayes 329, Noes 14.
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