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Mr. Forth: Perhaps I am pre-empting one of my right hon. Friend's points, but the distinction is between not only the licensee and an employee or agent of the licensee, but also--for example, under proposed new section 169C--the person who attempts to make the purchase. Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is an important difference between someone at one end of the offence--in this case, the person who attempts to make the illegal purchase--and the person who, inadvertently or not, allows him to do so?
Mr. Maclean: I agree with my right hon. Friend. If I imposed my moral scale of guilt on alcohol consumption by those aged under 18, the adult who deliberately
procures alcohol for consumption by under-18s deserves the highest penalty and should be top of the list. The under-age person who buys alcohol should get the next highest penalty. Two levels of penalty should apply to the licensee: if he sells it deliberately, is negligent and could not care less, he should receive a high penalty; if he has taken steps, albeit inadequate, which do not satisfy the requirements of due diligence, he should receive a lesser penalty. At the bottom of the heap should be the sales checkout person in the shop or supermarket. Those people are least to blame.Sales checkout people have so many other obligations in the rush of selling goods. That is apparent in any of the little supermarkets around Westminster--for example, Sainsburys in Victoria street, Tesco in Warwick way and so on. I shall not list all the shops that I occasionally visit to get a few bits and pieces to keep body and soul together in London. However, there is a frantic rush at the checkout.
Throughout our proceedings, we have talked about off-licences, which might not be busy on occasions. Sometimes there are only two or three people in there at a time, and perhaps the staff have the time to look at the customers, make sure that they are the right age and ask for proof of identity. Perhaps bar owners should be more on the ball because they face the problem all the time and know the penalties. No one has told our 30,000, 40,000 or 50,000 supermarket checkout people their obligations in sufficient detail. They have a million things to do simultaneously: checking credit cards, asking about vouchers, cash-back and all the other claptrap associated with getting through a supermarket checkout. To expect them to deal with proof-of-age schemes and to make judgments on age is a heavy responsibility. However, to return to my remarks, which are directly relevant to proposed new section 169H, those youngsters on the checkout tills will be liable to the same penalties as the licensee, the person who buys the alcohol and adults who are involved in proxy purchasing on behalf of others deliberately and with malice aforethought.
Today is not the day to try to change those penalties--we considered them briefly on Report--and I do not suggest that they should be changed in the other place. If the House of Lords makes any adjustment to the Bill, I suspect that it may not be passed, given the dreadful bottleneck and the legislative shambles into which the Government have got the Houses of Parliament. We must let the Bill leave the House intact and I hope that it will pass the other place intact, otherwise it will not reach the statute book.
As the Government receive advice on the White Paper from all their consultees, I hope that they will consider the penalties, not just broadly--whether £1,000 is enough--but the categories of people to which they should apply. While I am discussing penalties, we need to consider another point. Proposed new section 169H(2) states:
- Where the holder of a justices' licence is convicted of any of the offences referred to in subjection (1) and the licence is held in respect of the licensed premises in relation to which the offence was committed, the court may order that he shall forfeit the licence if . . . he already has one or more convictions of an offence under section 169 . . .
As I understand the White Paper, if offences are committed, the police will have a new power to close down premises instantly for 24 hours, after which appeals can be made. However, it seems that those appeals will be to the local authority. Clearly, if the proposals in the White Paper go ahead, a lengthy new licensing Act would be necessary to deal with a range of matters and section 169H would need to be repealed. Even if the White Paper were implemented lock, stock and barrel--perhaps an appropriate term--does the Minister envisage that licensing justices will have any future role in convictions for offences? Magistrates may have to decide whether to convict.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman should not go further down that route or encourage the Minister to respond. We are not debating the White Paper; we must restrict discussion to the Bill.
Mr. Maclean: Precisely, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Naturally, I follow your guidance immediately. Therefore, I return to new section 169H(2) on justices taking away the licences of those who are convicted. As that section stands, it could fly in the face of other legislation that the Government may introduce following the White Paper. I hope that you agree that it is in order to ask the Minister whether he envisages that the powers under section 169H will remain, so that magistrates can convict people and recommend that a licence should be taken away, or whether they, in addition to local authorities, will still have the power to revoke licences?
Proxy purchase has been mentioned today. I am pleased that the hon. Member for Pudsey did not include test purchasing in the Bill. Legislation on proxy purchasing is legitimate and valid; it is sensible to include and widen such provision, as was done in Scotland four years ago. Lord Forsyth was responsible for plugging that loophole in Scotland--he was passionate about it in certain discussions in government, and I congratulate him--and I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on doing the same in English legislation.
The Bill that will leave the House is in pretty good shape and will plug loopholes that concern hon. Members on both sides of the House--it is a textbook case of good private Members' legislation. I say that in no sense of sycophancy or facetiousness. I am one of those who block legislation in the House if I think that it has not been properly debated, but my record in objecting to Bills is as nothing compared to the Government's. No doubt at 2.30 we shall see them wickedly destroy the aspirations of 30 hon. Members from both sides of the House.
The Bill is a good example of legislating rather than reacting, as we all did with the dangerous dogs legislation. After the tragic case of David Knowles, it would be easy to say, as the House often does, "It must never happen again; give us legislation." Who would stop a Bill of merit
that tried to do the right thing to prevent a tragedy from happening again? If we had not carefully considered the hon. Gentleman's first Bill, it might have been nodded through at 2.30, and we would have had to return to it a year later because it had not been debated properly.The hon. Gentleman has had to wait two and a half or three years to get decent legislation on to the statute book. I hope that there have been no other tragic cases since that of David Knowles, but we can never guarantee that as parliamentarians. No matter what we do as we try to rush through legislation, there will inevitably be other victims because of someone's negligence, human folly or bad judgment. As one who did not support his previous Bill, I congratulate the hon. Gentleman and wish this Bill well. I look forward to hearing the contributions of other hon. Members who have also played a vital role in ensuring that the Bill is good shape.
10.28 am
Mr. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North): I shall be extremely brief because there are matters to be discussed later that, although they may not be more important, are more contentious. The Bill is excellent and has wide support in the House; there are no problems with it. We all congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Mr. Truswell) on steering it so far. I shall say a few words to send it on its way and to draw in other issues.
We all know that alcohol consumption among the young is a serious problem in Britain. The figures from Alcohol Concern show that such consumption is much higher in Britain than in other countries, in contrast to average consumption, which is rather lower. Consumption in Britain is increasing, although it is decreasing in other countries, and rising consumption among the young is causing the problem. European statistics and those from Alcohol Concern show that countries with strict controls on the licensing, sale and consumption of alcohol have lower levels of consumption, especially among the young, and that consumption tends to be higher in those countries that are more relaxed, such as Britain. I congratulate my hon. Friend on the Bill, which will close an important loophole.
Other hon. Members have touched on some wider issues, and I address my next remarks to my hon. Friend the Minister. The Government are to present their national alcohol strategy, and I ask my hon. Friend to urge his colleagues in the Department of Health to do so as soon as possible to take account of the wider problems of alcohol consumption in Britain, and to ensure that the strategy dovetails nicely with the changes in licensing that my hon. Friend is discussing in his White Paper.
There is a serious health risk in alcohol consumption. It is frightening that in the past 15 years deaths from cirrhosis of the liver in Britain have risen threefold. We want to stop that trend. The Bill will go some way to reducing those figures in later years, as young people who are now drinking too much benefit from tighter control on the sale of alcohol and learn from a general atmosphere and culture of concern about and awareness of the dangers of alcohol consumption.
I add my support to the Bill, and I hope that it goes through within the next few minutes.
10.31 am
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