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Mr. Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston): As you know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I worked extensively with the previous Member of Parliament representing Pudsey, Sir Giles Shaw. In his latter years in Parliament, he did a tremendous amount, as Chairman of the Select Committee on Science and Technology, to work on a consensual basis in the House. It gives me great pleasure to support my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Mr. Truswell), who has approached this Bill in the same way. Perhaps it is something in the water in Pudsey that encourages people to think in a consensual way in trying to get important measures through the House.
From what my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Garston (Maria Eagle) said, it is clear, even without the scientific survey to which she referred, that the physical evidence of under-age drinking and the circumstances that cause disruption, particularly to elderly people, is there for all to see. We must take a responsible view as a society to bring that under control.
Having been brought up in a Mediterranean country, I am certainly not opposed to young people drinking, but it must be in a responsible way. Having access to alcohol in an unsupervised way is irresponsible and leads to huge risks. Close to my office there is a lovely bowling green, which is regularly scattered with empty beer cans. It is clear from the evidence that the drinkers are youngsters who are substantially under age and cause disruption to the older, more mature people using the facilities. So this Bill is very important.
The right hon. Members for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean) and for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) referred to internet sales. "Booze.com" is not yet a reality, although I suspect that it may become one in the future, and the right hon. Gentlemen were quite right to mention it. However, there are important issues that the Government must get to grips with. Class A drugs
are available on the internet, and there must therefore be a risk that illicit sales of alcohol will start to be made on the internet in the near future.
Mr. Simon Burns (West Chelmsford): The hon. Gentleman said a moment ago that, from his office, he could see people drinking and leaving their beer cans around, and that it was clear that a number of the drinkers were under age. As a matter of interest, did the hon. Gentleman ever ring up the police to report this?
Mr. Miller: Yes, I did and yes, they came and yes, there is work going on with the bowling club and the local authority. It has been a positive result from the use of CCTV in my constituency.
We need to look at the intermediate technologies that are being widely used by supermarkets. There is a problem in that a number of supermarkets are, quite legitimately, developing sophisticated businesses based on call centre technology, that enable people to go back to the sort of circumstances that used to exist. I wonder whether, as his first entrepreneurial activity, the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst worked as a delivery boy for the local greengrocer. It strikes me as the sort of activity that he would have undertaken in his youth. Of course, the world has turned full circle, and such direct deliveries, without the customer having to interface with the shopkeeper, is coming back. I think that it is an extremely good thing, especially for people living in rural communities.
In that context, will my hon. Friend the Minister say whether, under proposed subsection 169F(1), it is his understanding that a person who works in licensed premises would be the delivery person for those premises? That would mean that two categories of persons would be involved--a direct employee of the licensed premises and an agent. If someone collects goods from licensed premises that he then delivers to the customer, it seems reasonable for the courts to say that he is a direct employee of the licensed premises and therefore has responsibilities under this measure. There seems to be a potential loophole in this loophole-closing Bill if the "booze.com" kind of business develops. I do not think that that will become widespread and prevalent in the next few years, because bulky goods do not make for such attractive business propositions in this area, so there is time to consider it. However, it must be considered.
There can also be a problem when the delivery mechanism is an agent of the supplier of the goods. We have discussed intellectual property and the role of internet service providers. Clearly, we are not talking about that in this context, but we are talking about companies such as Parcelforce or the Post Office acting as an agent for the supplier. We do not want such companies to be held responsible for actions of which they are not the cause. However, Post Office legislation provides that, if it is brought to the attention of the agent that there is a risk that it is in breach of the law, it should take reasonable steps to rectify the matter.
These areas will need to be considered in the longer term. In the short term, I would be grateful if my hon. Friend would cover the question of interpretation.
This may be a small Bill, but it is of great significance to all our constituents. I endorse the points made by Opposition Members. I hope that the Bill receives a
speedy passage in the other place and that it goes on to the statute book in the very near future. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey on his tenacity in driving his Bill through the House, and I wish it well.11.48 am
Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire): I start by agreeing with the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Mr. Miller) that, although this is a small measure in terms of paper, it is none the less important, because it goes to the heart of one of the most concerning aspects of our modern society--the dangers to young people.
The House will have been impressed by the comments of the hon. Member for Calder Valley (Ms McCafferty), who clearly showed concern and emotion over the Knowles case. I found it particularly poignant when she said that David Knowles had wanted to be a bank manager. Across the country there are young people with hopes, dreams and aspirations. There are so many opportunities in life--he may not have ended up as a bank manager, but he could have lived a happy, rewarding life in which he achieved things and felt that he had been successful. Yet, because he came across a danger in society, he did not have the opportunity to do that.
Earlier this week, I went to Manchester to launch the Junior 2000 Crucial Crew project--set up by the Manchester crime prevention panel to explain the dangers of modern life to young people. It is a fantastic project. One of the aspects covered is substance and alcohol abuse. Many people volunteer to take part in such projects, but we in Parliament have a special duty to do our part in setting up a legal framework to address the problems.
On behalf of the Opposition, I welcomed the Bill on Second Reading and I continue to do so. It closes the loophole that was so damaging in the Knowles case. Obviously, I extend again the tributes paid by many right hon. and hon. Members to the hon. Member for Pudsey (Mr. Truswell).
On Second Reading, a range of issues designed to test whether the Bill could go further were introduced. My hon. Friends the Members for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman), for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) and for Bromsgrove (Miss Kirkbride) all raised the issue of proxy purchasing, whereby an adult is persuaded to enter licensed premises to buy alcohol for someone who is under age.
My hon. Friend the Member for Meriden pointed out that it is an established practice. Everything that we have heard in today's debate--from the hon. Members for Liverpool, Garston (Maria Eagle) and for Calder Valley and Opposition Members--confirms that point. It is thus especially welcome that, in Committee, the hon. Member for Pudsey was prepared to table an amendment that makes it an offence to buy or to attempt to buy alcohol on behalf of a person who is under 18. We welcome that.
Today, however, several right hon. and hon. Members have made the point that the amendment may not go far enough. When the Spink Bill became law, it meant that, if an adult purchased alcohol on behalf of a young person, when that person came out of the licensed premises and handed the alcohol to the young person, it would have been possible for the police to confiscate the alcohol. However, the measure did not make it an offence to arrange for an adult to go to licensed premises and purchase the alcohol. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean) said, it might
be worth considering whether it would be possible to make an offence from the point of view of the young person. If young people know that it is not an offence to persuade an adult to do that, perhaps there is not enough constraint on them.I hope that the Minister will consider the point made by my right hon. Friend. Is there some way of tightening up on the young person who is consuming alcohol in a public place, or who is arranging for a proxy purchase? Will the Minister confirm that the points made in the debate will be considered as responses to the White Paper? Will they be taken into account when draft legislation is considered?
Among the tributes paid to the hon. Member for Pudsey was that he had focused his Bill. He has stuck to issues that he knows command the support of the whole House. That is the correct approach to a private Member's Bill. Indeed, how could I possibly deny that, when I am told that no less a man than Winston Churchill approved of that approach? That is what my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) tells us, and I am sure that he is right.
There are several issues that the Minister should attempt to deal with, given his own knowledge and experience, to which is no doubt added the benefit of advice from his civil servants. My right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border asked how the defence would be mounted. How would the licensee or the worker prove that they had been duly diligent? It was asked whether it would be necessary for the licensee or the worker to have asked to see proof of identification in order to satisfy a court that due diligence had been exercised.
That point was taken up by my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst, so it is incumbent on the Minister to explain how the defence would work. In his view, what practical measures would licensees and workers have to take?
A point was made about the scale of penalties. Is it right that the licensee should receive the same penalty as, for example, the regular worker at a supermarket checkout? Should there be a higher maximum for a person who holds a more responsible position in the chain of command? I am sure that the Minister will want to touch on that in his remarks.
The Minister was asked whether proposed new section 169H would be likely to be repealed as a result of the White Paper. Obviously, he will not be able to tell us his final conclusion on that matter, but perhaps he could give us a picture of current thinking.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough referred to the way in which the prosecution would approach such cases. Is enough effort being put into mounting prosecutions in these circumstances, or are such cases seen as difficult to prosecute and not given full attention? Are prosecutions effective? When a prosecution is mounted, is it likely to succeed? What are the figures? Are prosecutions generally successful or is there a substantial proportion of acquittals?
The wider social problems were mentioned--such as the fact that football hooliganism and other forms of vandalism are fuelled by drink. Does the Minister have a view as to ways in which the law needs to be further tightened up?
The hon. Member for Garston asked for test purchasing and explained the concerns in her constituency. There are doubts as to the civil liberties aspects of test purchasing and the effect on young people. What is the Government's current thinking on that matter? From the White Paper, one has the impression that the Government support test purchasing, but it would be helpful if the Minister could confirm that.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst raised a number of points that have formed a theme in our deliberations on the Bill. Does the use of the words "in licensed premises" as the point of sale in the offence affect internet sales? One would think that it does. Is the Minister satisfied that there are no substantial internet sales at present? Credit cards are available to under-18s and a small number of under-18-year-olds hold debit cards. Is the Minister satisfied with that situation or does he think that research should be carried out? On Second Reading, I asked whether he would be prepared to initiate such research and I note that his hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston is also concerned about that matter. It would be helpful to know whether the words "in licensed premises" do not include internet sales--I assume that they do not. Now that the Minister has had time over the past two months to ponder the matter, does he think that research is needed?
My right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst wanted to know whether it will be an offence to purchase alcohol for someone under 18 if that person drinks it outside the premises. It seems to me that it will not be an offence, and I understand that there would be difficulties for pub gardens and similar areas if it were. Does the Minister think that the provisions in the Spink Bill, which is now the Confiscation of Alcohol (Young Persons) Act 1997, cover such cases?
We heard in the debate much about the speed at which the operators of tills in supermarkets have to work. Is the Minister satisfied that, in that environment, proper protection is in place? Is it possible in such circumstances to ask for identification? Does he need to consult the supermarkets about how they operate their tills and about their staffing levels, so that we can ensure that proper time is given to the important process of checking identification?
The amendments on proxy purchasing raised the concern that parents who buy alcohol for a family meal at which a child might responsibly be introduced to alcohol might be caught by the Bill's provisions. In Committee, the Minister reassured us that the wording used would not bring such parents into the offence, and that the provision would apply only if the purchase was made on behalf of a young person. Will he confirm that, so that there is no doubt?
The Portman Group, Alcohol Concern and the Brewers and Licensed Retailers Association have all welcomed the Bill. We continue our support for it. David Knowles died in a tragic way and his family will no doubt still find that the most traumatic experience. However, as the hon. Member for Pudsey said, the passing of the Bill may give them some comfort as a memorial to David Knowles. We express our condolences to the family and we hope that the Bill will protect young people so that they can fulfil their hopes and aspirations without falling into the dangers that have been described in this debate.
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