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Mr. Simon Hughes: The Minister may not be able to answer this question now. If he cannot, I should be grateful if he would write to me on it. He said that, in the context of care provision, the measure was used for the first time in the case that we discussed. Can he give us the figures on how frequently the measure has been used generally since 1971?
Mr. Boateng: No; but I shall certainly write to the hon. Gentleman on that.
Clarity is crucial in the drafting of criminal offences. I do not believe that new clause 1, as drafted, would meet that test, as those who tabled the new clause intended it to do. However, I well understand the concerns about the general point that my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge articulated, while avoiding comment on the specific case. In considering further guidance, we shall certainly bear in mind the contribution of all hon.
Members to this debate. It has been an important debate about a serious issue and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising it in the way that she has.7 pm
Mrs. Anne Campbell: I thank everyone who has taken part in the debate, which has been important in terms of clarification. I thank also my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for the courteous way in which he responded to my concerns.
I accept that care agencies are not exempt from the law, nor would I wish them to be so. It is important that we take steps to ensure that there is no illegal drug abuse on premises where we can reasonably expect people to be protected from such activity. It is important that care agencies should not be exempt from the law; indeed, that was not what I was arguing.
I was arguing that there should be more clarity, and my right hon. Friend has said that he will issue guidance. I hope that that will come soon, because of the enormous anxiety that the case to which I referred has created. Of course, care workers must take reasonable steps to show that they have not knowingly permitted or suffered actions to take place. They must not condone, encourage or turn a blind eye.
I believe that reasonable steps were taken in the case of Wintercomfort when people who were suspected of drug taking were excluded from the premises. That does not appear to be a sufficient way of demonstrating that reasonable steps have been taken. Many people were excluded--not on the basis that they were seen to be exchanging drugs or money but, in some cases, simply on the basis that they were suspected of doing so. It may have been because of their behaviour. They may have been sitting close together in a huddle, having a conversation which looked as though it was not intended to be overheard.
My right hon. Friend maintains that this is not a widespread problem. I will be happy if that is the case, but there is a concern, held by many in the sector, that having once brought a successful case and gained a conviction, the police might be encouraged to bring others, and innocent victims may be caught.
Mr. Peter Bottomley: Does the hon. Lady agree that some of the more interesting words used by the Minister of State were that, often, Court of Appeal judgments in these sort of things helped to make the law clear, and that it would be convenient if the Court of Appeal could do that in this case?
Mrs. Campbell: The hon. Gentleman has been assiduous in pursuing this case and makes an important point. Like many others, I will read the words of my right hon. Friend on the clause with care. I hope that the further guidance from the Government will be issued and I urge that that be done as quickly as possible. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause 2
Protection of Children Act 1978--maximum term of imprisonment
'--For section 6 of the Protection of Children Act 1978 (Punishments), there shall be substituted--
"(6) a person guilty of an offence under this Act shall be liable--
(a) on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years or to a fine, or to both;
(b) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.".'.--[Mr. Lidington.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
Mr. Lidington: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 3--Repeat Child Sex Offenders: Minimum Sentences--
'.--(1) (a) Subject to subsection (b), this section applies where a person over the age of 18 years is convicted in England and Wales of a sex offence against a child and has previously been convicted in any part of the United Kingdom of a sex offence against a child.
(b) This section shall not apply to any person to whom section 2 of the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997 (Mandatory life sentence for second serious offence) applies.
(2) Where the person referred to in (1) above has one previous conviction for a sex offence against a child, the court shall impose either
(a) a sentence of imprisonment of at least five years, or
(b) a sentence of life imprisonment.
(3) Where the person referred to in (1) above has more than one previous conviction for a sex offence against a child, the court shall impose either
(a) a sentence of imprisonment of at least 10 years, or
(b) a sentence of life imprisonment.
(4) The court may not impose the prescribed sentences specified in (2) and (3) if it is of the opinion that there are specific circumstances which relate to any of the offences or to the offender which would make the prescribed custodial sentence unjust in all the circumstances.
(5) Section 58 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 (Sentences extended for licence purposes) shall apply to sentences passed under this section.
(6) In this section "sex offence against a child" means any of the following offences where the victim or intended victim of the offence was or would have been under the age of sixteen years at the time of the offence or intended offence:
(a) offences under the following provisions of the Sexual Offences Act 1956--
(i) section 1 (rape);
(ii) section 5 (intercourse with a girl under 13);
(iii) section 6 (intercourse with a girl between 13 and 16);
(iv) section 10 (incest by a man);
(v) section 11 (incest by a woman);
(vi) section 12 (buggery);
(vii) section 13 (gross indecency);
(viii) section 14 (indecent assault on a girl);
(ix) section 15 (indecent assault on a boy);
(x) section 16 (assault with intent to commit buggery);
(xi) section 23 (procuration of a girl under 21);
(xii) section 28 (causing or encouraging prostitution of, intercourse with, or indecent assault on, girl under 16);
(c) an offence under section 54 of the Criminal Law Act 1977 (inciting girl under 16 to have incestuous sexual intercourse);
(d) an offence under section 1 of the Protection of Children Act 1978 (indecent photographs of children);
(e) any offence under
(i) section 70 of the Army Act 1955;
(ii) section 70 of the Air Force Act 1955; or
(iii) section 42 of the Naval Discipline Act 1957,
of which an offence under paragraphs (a) to (d) would constitute a corresponding civil offence (within the meaning of that Act)
(f) any offence of aiding, abetting, counselling, procuring or inciting the commission of the above offences;
(g) any offence of conspiring or attempting to commit such an offence;
(h) any offence under the law of Scotland or Northern Ireland that, if committed in England and Wales, would constitute an offence under paragraphs (a) to (g) above.'.
New clause 4--Possession of Indecent Photographs of Children--
'.--For section 160(3) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 there shall be substituted:
"(3) a person guilty of any offence under this section shall be liable--
(a) on conviction, on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years, or a to fine, or to both;
(b) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.".'.
New clause 5--Procuration of child under sixteen--
'.--For section 23 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956 (Procuration of girl under twenty-one), there shall be substituted--
"Procuration of child under sixteen
It is an offence for a person to--
(a) procure or attempt to procure a child under the age of sixteen for the purposes of sexual activity anywhere in the world with a third person;
(b) incite or attempt to incite another to procure a child under the age of sixteen for the purposes of sexual activity anywhere in the world with any person."
(2) In the second schedule to the Sexual Offences Act 1956, in the column headed "offence", for the term "Procuration of girl under twenty-one (section 23)", there shall be substituted "Procuration of child under sixteen (section 23)"
(3) In the second schedule to the Sexual Offences Act 1956, in the column headed "punishment", for the term "two years" relating to "Procuration of girl under twenty-one (section 23)", and an attempt to commit that offence, there shall be substituted "ten years".'.
New clause 6--Indecency with children--
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