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Mr. Gray: Will the hon. Gentleman give us one example of a piece of land which currently has no rights of way and, therefore, to which the public have no access, but to which, under the Bill, he believes the public should have access, and which is less than 10 hectares?
Mr. Heath: No, because I do not have an example in mind, just as the hon. Gentleman may not have in mind an example of land which would fall under the requirements of access land and meet all the other definitions in the Bill, and which would otherwise be included in the mapping process, but which falls within that limited area.
The hon. Member for Ashford is tilting at the wrong windmill. He was on to a much better point in Committee when he talked about inaccessible land. There is a strong argument for not including inaccessible portions of land in the mapping of open country. To whose advantage would it be for land which cannot be reached by any means--which by definition will be a small portion of land because otherwise it would be accessible--to be included in the map, which, presumably, people will use as a means of identifying land over which they can walk?
Had the amendment been couched in terms of inaccessibility, its movers would have had a strong point; however, imposing an arbitrary figure of 10 hectares gives rise to the question whether there is open access land as defined in the Bill that is surrounded by common land or by a promontory which is important in recreational or leisure terms and which should be included but which might be excluded simply because of the inflexibility of the suggested formula.
Mr. Bercow: I find myself in uncharacteristic agreement with the hon. Gentleman. Is his point about accessibility not strengthened by the fact that, in this context, we are discussing access by foot, and not, for example, by air? Hang-gliding and paragliding are quite properly subject to restrictions in the Bill. Does that not serve to underline the force of the hon. Gentleman's point?
Mr. Heath: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his support. He is right. I cannot claim originality for the concept because the proposal came from Conservative Members in Committee. However it was a sensible one which I support.
Throughout our proceedings, we have sought to make the Bill practicable--to make it work for those who wish to take advantage of access and for those who are landowners or who try to work the land and have an
interest in the land, who also need clarity of definition for all sorts of reason. My main criticism of the Bill is that some areas still lack clarity.I am not convinced that the 10 hectare proposal is a particularly useful yardstick or metrestick. Provision already exists for countryside bodies not to include land which it is of no value for them to map for the purpose of access, so the de minimis provision is essentially there but not in a defined form. The question is whether the definition adds to or subtracts from the Bill. My view is that it does not add anything and may subtract something.
Amendment No. 102 was a vexed question in Committee. All, apart from the Minister, agreed that "wholly or predominantly" was not a particularly helpful definition because it left a lot about which to argue. We suggested alternative forms of words. I proposed "almost entirely" and was told that that was equally vague. I accept that it is imprecise. "Overwhelming" was suggested as an alternative to "predominantly". Again, it is imprecise.
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My objection to amendment No. 102 is that I interpret "predominantly" as more than 60 per cent. The hon. Member for Ashford said that that was the NFU's criticism; it is also mine. I do not expect land that is only 60 per cent. heathland, moorland or mountain to be mapped as open access land per se. The amendment proposes an unhelpful definition, which I hope the hon. Gentleman will not pursue.
The hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key) gave a complex discourse on the position in Great Wishford, and the difficulties of estovers and turbary. He made a good point about partial rights of access to common land. However, the provision to which he wants to add amendment No. 306 is not the appropriate one. I may be mistaken, but I believe he is trying to add it to a provision that excepts land from open access. The qualification would therefore make matters worse from the hon. Gentleman's point of view. The Minister will deal with that, and I shall listen carefully to the argument. The hon. Member for Salisbury made a good point, which may have to be pursued in another place. However, I suspect that amendment No. 306 is not helpful from his point of view.
Mr. Gray: I support amendments Nos. 101 and 102. I would support amendment No. 306 if I knew more about Great Wishford. However, my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key) spoke eloquently enough on that. Despite the fact that I, too, am a Wiltshire man, the amendment needs no support from me. I am confident that the Government will accept the power and logic of my hon. Friend's arguments.
Amendments Nos. 101 and 102 are vital if the Bill is to work. Many people in the countryside and Conservative Members oppose the principle of the right to roam. We do not like it because we believe that it infringes on the rights of ownership and other matters. However, it is not appropriate to consider that now. If we grant that the principle has been lost, that the Bill will be passed and rights of access will exist, it is vital that the detail be crystal clear, precise and completely understood. The measure will work only if walkers understand their responsibilities and owners understand their privileges of
ownership. The Bill must strike a delicate balance between the rights of owners and the rights and obligations of walkers. Imprecision in the Bill's language will lead to confrontation and to the measure falling into disrepute. It will also mean that parts of the Bill will be disputed in court. We do not want that.In Committee, I said that I was proud of the fact that the Ramblers Association in Wiltshire is working well with the county council and others to establish an embryonic access forum. I hope that it will become a worthwhile and useful organisation once the Bill is enacted. I am worried that, if the detail is not made clear and precision of language is not achieved, such useful co-operation between walkers and landowners will fail and there will be the sort of confrontation and argument that has taken place between walkers and landowners in other parts of England.
On amendment No. 101, it is important to be clear about what we mean by access land. When pressed, the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) could not produce an example of a piece of land of less than 10 hectares, which would otherwise be suitable for access under the Bill, but would be prohibited by its size, and land that did not have some other form of access, such as a right of way, path or road. I challenge anyone to name a piece of land measuring less than 10 hectares that would not be covered by the Bill.
Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) rose--
Mr. Gray: The hon. Gentleman, who is a well known rambler, apparently has such an example.
Mr. Prentice: There may well be crags measuring less than 10 hectares to which mountaineers want access. Surely that is not inconceivable.
Mr. Gray: But the mountain itself, being more than 600 m high, would be fully accessible under the Bill. Crags measuring less than 10 hectares would therefore also be accessible. The hon. Gentleman has not given me an example of a piece of land that would not be accessible--that is, land that is not a mountain measuring more than 600 m, and is not surrounded by access land.
Mr. Bennett: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Gray: Of course I must give way to the president of the Ramblers Association.
Mr. Bennett: I am certain that Windgather Rocks in the Peak district is within the definition in terms of scale.
Mr. Gray: I hope that, as Chairman of the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs Environment Sub- Committee, the hon. Gentleman will want to take us to the Peak district to inspect the piece of land that he cites. I fear that I do not know it, but I am confident that it will turn out to be surrounded by access land, and therefore to be eligible for access. I shall, however, examine the position in detail later.
More important is the fact that, throughout the nation, there are large areas of otherwise cultivated land, in the centre of which there may be pieces of land that--
possibly temporarily, possibly for a number of years--constitute heathland. Under the Bill, that land would become a small pocket of access land, although it would be foolish to allow that to happen, for a number of reasons.Let us consider the issue from the point of view of those who want the Bill to succeed. If every pocket handkerchief--the odd hectare here and there--were included in the mapping exercise, the exercise would become bogged down in bureaucracy. It would not be possible to produce an accurate map covering the whole nation and including every minute piece of land. The value of the exercise to walkers would be greatly reduced: what is the point of a map peppered by a variety of otherwise useless bits of land, on which the average walker would not want to walk in any case?
Moreover, the burden on farmers who would have to prepare such land for reasonable access under the terms of the Bill would be disproportionate. They would have to spend a great deal of time and effort, and incur considerable costs, getting the land ready for walkers and safeguarding themselves against the various penalties that the Bill imposes--and probably no one would walk on the land, because it would not be appropriate for walking on.
A minimum of 10 hectares is essential. We should be able to tell farmers, "If it measures less than 10 hectares, do not worry about it: it will not be affected by the Bill." In fact, I would have preferred a larger figure. I think that 10 hectares is extremely modest, and the National Farmers Union agrees that that is a very small area suddenly to become access land. However, I dare say that the NFU, the Country Landowners Association and others would, like me, be prepared to compromise and agree on a minimum of 10 hectares, simply in order to prevent the conflict between landowners and walkers, which hon. Members on both sides of the House are so keen to avoid.
Amendment No. 102 proposes the deletion of the words "wholly or predominantly" and their replacement with a figure. Like the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome, I think that 60 per cent. is probably too low a figure. In my view, "wholly or predominantly" means 80 or 90 per cent.; indeed, "wholly" means 100 per cent. To tempt the Government to accept the precision of the definition, however, it seems reasonable to propose a figure of 60 per cent. in relation to moorland, heathland or mountain. I do not understand why the Government do not want to accept that. Surely, if we introduce precision we shall be more likely to avoid conflict between the two interested parties.
The Government may say that the question of a de minimis figure is covered by clause 4(5)(a), which says that the mapping bodies may ignore certain parcels of land if they are too small. That applies, however, only if the mapping bodies are in agreement with the landowner. However, it is possible that, in a spirit of determination to give as much land possible to walkers, the mapping or access body could drive ahead with opening otherwise absurdly small pieces of land to walkers, which would achieve nothing for them or the farmers.
In these amendments and in others that my hon. Friends will move later this evening, it is absolutely crucial that, on this terribly important principle, we should state clearly and precisely what the Bill means for the public and for landowners. I am already concerned that my constituents believe that the right to roam means that they can walk
anywhere. People are saying, "We have a right to roam; we can walk on your fields, gardens or wherever we like." That is the word that has gone out from this place to the public. It is important that, on Report and during the Bill's other stages, we send out messages to the public that there will be access to particular areas.
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