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'(1) In paragraph 1(hh), "metal detector" means any device designed or adapted for detecting or locating any metal or mineral in the ground.
(2)'.
No. 207, in page 42, leave out lines 11 to 14.
No. 208, in page 42, line 22, leave out "access".
No. 209, in page 42, line 26, at end insert--
'(aa) the variation of any direction given under this paragraph by a subsequent direction so given,'.--[Mr. Meacher.]
Mr. Meacher: I beg to move amendment No. 210, in page 42, leave out lines 32 to 35 and insert--
'has the meaning given by section 20.'.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin): With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 150, 151, 154 to 164, 168 to 172 and 184.
Mr. Meacher: The amendments collectively give effect to the designation of the forestry commissioners as the relevant authority for any woodland that has been dedicated to public access in clause 16. We expect that the arrangements will encourage woodland and forestry owners voluntarily to enter into dedications, in the knowledge that, if they require directions under chapter II of the Bill, they will be dealing with an organisation that is familiar with the particular needs of woodland management and that is also responsible for licences and grants for woodland management.
For the sake of clarity, I should very briefly explain that amendments Nos. 210, 150 and 151 insert new provisions in chapter II and schedule 2 to amend the definition of "relevant authority". Amendments Nos. 154 and 155 enable the Countryside Council for Wales to give advice to the commissioners on the restriction or exclusion of access for the purposes of nature conservation under clause 24.
Amendments Nos. 156 to 164 provide for an appeal on, or reference from, a decision of the commissioners, under chapter II, to be heard by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.
Amendments Nos. 168 to 172 allow for the countryside bodies to give guidance to the commissioners on the exercise of their functions under chapter II. Finally, amendment No. 184 gives the commissioners the same powers of entry to land in the exercise of their functions, under chapter II, as are available to other relevant authorities.
The Forestry Commission will be examining the possibility of dedicating the national forest estate under the powers in clause 16. The commissioners would then be responsible for determining the restrictions and
exclusions on the commission's own estate. I realise that that would entail the creation of a system of Chinese walls--as I think they are called--to ensure that there is a clear separation of duties as between Forest Enterprise, which is responsible for forest management, and the commission staff responsible for determining whether closures should be approved. That would mirror the approaches widely accepted for handling other consents.6.45 pm
Mr. David Heath: Will the right hon. Gentleman just say whether the Forestry Commission has any duty whatever to promote recreational access or whether it will be given any such duty?
Mr. Meacher: It does. I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman is putting emphasis on the word "promote", as opposed to "allow". There is certainly very substantial access to the Forestry Commission estate, and it is certainly my understanding that the Forestry Commission does promote access.
The amendments will enhance the attractiveness of the Bill's dedication element. That is certainly their intention. The Forestry Commission has long had responsibility for managing woodland in the public sector and for regulating the management of woodland in the private sector. The commission is well respected in that role, and the amendments merely represent a logical extension of the commission's responsibilities. I commend the amendments to the House.
Clause 5
Mr. Bennett: I beg to move amendment No. 2, in page 3, line 37, at beginning insert--
'by the end of the period of 32 months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed,'.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 3, in page 3, line 38, leave out "the prescribed period" and insert--
'a period of six months beginning with the day on which the map is issued in draft form'.
Amendment No. 4, in page 4, line 3, at end insert--
'(2) Whether the map is confirmed with or without modifications, the map in provisional form shall be issued by the appropriate countryside body no later than six months after the expiry of the period during which representations may be received in respect of the map in draft form under subsection (1)(b)'.
Amendment No. 61, in clause 6, page 4, line 8, at end insert--
'(1A) Any person may appeal--
(a) in the case of land in England, to the Secretary of State; or
(b) in the case of land in Wales, to the National Assembly for Wales;
against the failure to show that land on a map in provisional form as registered common land or as open country.'.
Amendment No. 82, in page 4, line 13, leave out from "brought" to end of line 15 and insert--
'on the ground or grounds that--
( ) the land does not consist of mountain, moor, heath or down, or
( ) the inclusion of the land would serve no useful purpose, or'.
Amendment No. 62, in page 4, line 19, at end insert--
'(3A) An appeal relating to the failure to show any land as registered common land may be brought only on the ground that it is registered common land.'.
Amendment No. 63, in page 4, line 19, at end insert--
'(3B) An appeal relating to the failure to show any land as open country may be brought only on the ground that--
(a) the land does consist wholly or predominantly of mountain, moor, heath or down, and
(b) to the extent that the appropriate countryside body have exercised their discretion under section 4(5)(b) to treat land which is open country as forming part of an area which is not open country, the body ought not to have done so.'.
Amendment No. 64, in clause 7, page 4, line 29, leave out from "hearing" to end of line 31.
Amendment No. 30, in clause 10, page 6, line 26, leave out "ten" and insert "five".
Amendment No. 58, in clause 11, page 7, line 1, leave out--
'the period within which and'.
Mr. Bennett: This group of amendments deals with the matter of when it will all happen--which is the crucial issue for the Ramblers Association, the British Mountaineering Council and many other people. When the House was passing the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949, great promises were made that all rights of way would be included on definitive maps within about five years of the legislation's passage, but 30 years later, that process had still not been completed. It was also promised that there would be many voluntary access agreements, but it took more than 10 years before any such agreements were established in the Peak district. Many national parks have never made any such agreements.
We are therefore greatly concerned at the fact that, at the beginning of the chapter on the right of access, absolutely no time limit has been provided. Amendments Nos. 2, 3 and 4 seek to include a time-limit mechanism in the Bill.
In Committee and in meetings, Ministers have said, "Don't worry, the Countryside Agency has the matter in hand. It is a dynamic organisation, and it will push through mapping with vigour." Although I am not totally convinced that the agency is a dynamic organisation, I shall not say more about that now, as the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs Committee is about to take evidence from its representatives--who may be able to convince us that it is a dynamic organisation.
The Minister will undoubtedly tell us in his reply that the agency really is a dynamic organisation; that we have nothing to fear; and that access maps will be drawn up and issued very quickly. I therefore ask him to tell us the timetable for issuing the maps, and what powers he has
to push the process along. I understand that he claims that he can give the Countryside Agency a direction to get on with the work. I am a bit sceptical about that, as I believe that the Ramblers Association has a legal opinion which says that the Bill does not give him that type of power.The first three amendments in this group are simply asking the Government for a timetable; how that timetable will be enforced; and how soon I shall be able to tell my constituents and Ramblers Association members not simply that there is an Act of Parliament but that it provides them with the ability to go to those places for which maps have been published so that they can enjoy their right of access.
Our amendments Nos. 61, 82, 62, 63, 64 and 58 really deal with a matter of natural justice. The process should entail the Countryside Agency consulting on the question of which areas should be access land and then drawing up maps. People who object because their land is on the map have a right of appeal. I find it absolutely crazy that the public should not have the right of appeal when a piece of land to which they had been looking forward to gaining access is not included.
I plead with the Government to look sympathetically at the amendments. A balance can be struck--between a right of appeal for a landowner who does not want his land to be included on the map and a right of appeal for individuals or groups who may have campaigned for many years for access to a particular piece of land only to find that it has not been included.
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