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Mr. Gray: Is there not a curious perversity here, in that the best days for a syndicated shoot on some lands are
Saturdays and bank holidays? Those are the days to get people out of London and the cities on to the moors to do a bit of syndicated shooting, which is where the big money is. That big money keeps the moors going. The curious perversity is that under the Bill those are the very days on which people cannot close off their land.
Mr. Paice: It is not simply a matter of shooting, although my hon. Friend is entirely right that people will pay a premium for an opportunity to shoot on Saturdays that they will not pay during the week, when there is slightly less demand. The features of the landscape that generate the best shooting--particularly grouse shooting--are the very features that walkers want to see. A good crop of heather with plenty of heather cover across the moor and a clean environment with a healthy wildlife stock is good for grouse, but it is also exactly what people want to see. They do not want to walk through bracken-covered hills with old rank heather that has long passed its most useful date and is no longer of any value to wildlife. That means that heather has to be burned on a regular cycle to cause it to regenerate. That is a critical part of heather moor management--but is burning heather on a large scale commensurate with free access? I suggest that it is not.
The 28-day limit and matters relating to closure at weekends and bank holidays bring us to the issue of land management. Amendment No. 98 seeks to create a definition of land management and builds on what the Minister said in Committee. I have already quoted his remarks which appeared to mean that shooting was included under the heading of land management. When we sought to define land management in Committee, the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions said at column 480:
- The proposed definition is, in some respects, rather narrow . . . the amendment might cast doubts on the possibility of closures for, for example, motor racing, war games, training racehorses or waste processing activities--[Official Report, Standing Committee B, 2 May 2000; c. 480.]
9.15 pm
We have concentrated on the question of sheep farming, as it represents by far the biggest land use. However, many farmers also keep cattle on their hills, and that poses serious public safety issues. I said in Committee that some breeds of hill cattle can be exceedingly fierce at calving time. They will defend their calves viciously from anyone then, and it is no exaggeration to say that tragedies could happen if people appeared suddenly close to a cow with a calf.
In amendment No. 98, we have tried to define what we mean by land management. This time, I hope that our definition cannot be described as too narrow, but it is not intended to provide opportunities for unscrupulous landowners to close off their land--a matter that worried the Minister in Committee. Under clause 22, landowners can only apply to the Countryside Agency for approval to close off their land. A spurious application would be treated with disdain and rejected, but the amendment's definitions of land management--which take into account the comments made by Ministers in Committee--would provide the basis for serious applications.
I turn now to the criteria that we have used. I think that all hon. Members would agree that agriculture and forestry count as land management, but we argue that the maintenance and improvement of the wildlife habitat also count as land management. I have spoken about grouse, but the same criteria apply to countless forms of open-country wildlife, such as ground-nesting birds, or waders, or other species.
- any activity to maintain, improve or use sporting opportunities on the land.
Mr. Gray: At present, most lamping is undertaken with a shotgun. An interesting element of the Burns report which has not yet been highlighted is that it points out that a ban on hunting would mean that lamping would be carried out with high-velocity rifles. Does my hon. Friend agree that using such a weapon to shoot foxes in the pitch dark would be extremely dangerous?
Mr. Paice: I do not know anyone who goes lamping with a shotgun. I use a rifle, as does everyone else I know. However, one uses any gun only where it is safe to do so. Burns states that the use of high-powered rifles would not be acceptable in many parts of the country--especially if open access means that those with the guns do not know where other people may be. A fox may be visible in the spotlight 100 yards away, but the shooter may not be able to see a person walking only a few yards away. That is clearly a serious public safety issue.
Mr. Swayne: Does my hon. Friend imagine that hunt saboteurs will put up their feet once this measure goes through? The reality is that they will be present to disrupt those proceedings.
Mr. Paice: That may well be the case. I genuinely do not want to digress into a debate about hunting or what may take its place. However, pest control is an important part of overall land management, particularly with regard to the agricultural and sporting use of the land.
Finally, amendment No. 98 would provide the opportunity for landowners for close the land, or seek to close it, in furtherance of generating the income that, as I have described, is in line with Government policy.
I feel sure that some right hon. and hon. Members, perhaps even the Minister, will suggest that we are simply trying to look after landlords and reduce the opportunities for people to use the countryside. That is not the case. We have looked at the debates in Committee and heeded what the Minister said. Indeed, some of our earlier proposals were for a much longer period than 40 days. We believe, however, that 40 days is a reasonable compromise--a reasonable balance, as the Minister said in relation to his choice of 28 days. We believe that the amount of time in which people will want to shoot grouse, gather sheep, burn heather or shoot foxes on their land cannot be
contained within a 28-day period or restricted to Mondays to Fridays excluding bank holidays. Occasional weekend days also need to be included.If the Minister's response to the issues of weekends and the 28-day period is that our proposals are not necessary because clause 22 provides the opportunity for landowners to apply to close off their land at any stage or for any period, it is critical that the definition of land management, to which clause 22 specifically refers, is broad enough to ensure that it covers all the eventualities that I have described. I hope that the Government will accept that the amendments have been tabled in a genuine and constructive vein, in an attempt to improve the Bill and its ability to meet the needs of land managers, without seriously damaging the opportunity for people to use the right that they will acquire under the Bill.
Mr. Bennett: The hon. Member for South-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Paice) seems to be making a great deal of unnecessary fuss about this. I find it amazing that he believes that access should be restricted during the lambing season. I spent many of my early years on a Welsh hill farm and I never saw a Welsh hill farmer who felt that at lambing time he had to put sheep into a particular field that did not have a footpath running through it, as opposed to putting them into one with a footpath.
Mr. Paice: There is a wealth of difference between a footpath and open access. The hon. Gentleman seems to fail to understand this point, which the Government kept repeating in Committee. When there is a footpath across land, access is manageable and farmers can, if they wish, keep their sheep away. Indeed, the sheep will probably keep themselves away. If there is open access there is no control, and no management of where people may come from or walk to, or of what disturbance they may create.
Mr. Bennett: I just do not think that the hon. Gentleman lives in the real world. I have looked at lambing on footpaths, and very often the lamb is actually dropped on the footpath. The people walking across the footpath use their common sense--they walk round, they divert from the footpath. That is exactly what will happen if there is access. I think that the hon. Gentleman is making a great deal of unnecessary fuss about lambing. My plea is for there to be as few restrictions as possible to make the system work. I am sure that he accepts that farmers will not want to spend a great deal of time putting up notices telling people that access is restricted.
People who go walking pick out routes which make a circle--to get back to their cars--or between two public transport points. They will set out with the intention of making that walk. If they suddenly find, for what they perceive to be no good reason, that there is a restriction on their access, they will not be pleased. I will not dilate on how they will respond.
The problem is that the more we restrict the routes that people can take, the less willing people will be to make the legislation work. They must be convinced that there is good reason for restricting access. I would suggest that with an increase from 28 to 40 days, the temptation for landowners to make land unavailable to walkers for the maximum rather than the minimum time will be considerable.
It is important that we impress upon people in the countryside that walkers are responsible people who will not want to cause problems. They will want to move out of the way if sheep are being collected off the hillside. They will want to take into account whether lambing is occurring in the areas that they are going into. They will have enough common sense to keep well away if there are cattle on the hillsides dropping calves.
We must develop the Bill in a spirit of co-operation and not by saying that there will be longer restrictions so that people suddenly find that, having set out to walk a particular circular route, they have to walk a considerable extra distance to avoid going on to a piece of land where there is a restriction.
I plead with the Opposition not to press this matter, which would bring the Bill into disrepute, as land access would be prevented for all sorts of trivial reasons rather than for the very small number of serious reasons when access needs to be restricted.
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