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Mr. Christopher Gill (Ludlow): I endorse all that my hon. Friend the Member for South-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Paice) said from the Front Bench, and stress that as a practical farmer myself, I believe that he has genuinely tried to improve the Bill in a constructive way. My hon. Friend's comments, like those that I shall make, were based on practical experience. I have some knowledge of the ways of sheep, and I know how extraordinarily frustrating they can be.
I can confirm that my hon. Friend's reply to the intervention by the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) was right. In his own remarks, the hon. Gentleman told the House that he had been brought up on a farm. That is untypical. It makes the hon. Gentleman, my hon. Friend and me untypical of the majority of people who go walking in the countryside. The majority of walkers were not privileged to have been brought up on a farm and are, therefore, not nearly as conversant with the ways of animals and how they will react under certain circumstances--not least how they will react when disturbed by human beings who happen to walk through their territory.
My hon. Friend instanced the problems of mustering on a hillside, when just one person appearing in the wrong place will have the effect of scattering the flock over a wide area, causing the shepherd enormous loss of time, great frustration and additional hard work under extremely trying circumstances.
Mr. Gray: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. In response to the comments of the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich a moment ago--[Interruption.] I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon--the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett). There is a curious explanation for my error, but I shall not go into that. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman.
The definitive briefing on the matter must be from the National Farmers Union, which states:
- It is absolutely imperative that ewes and lambs are not disturbed during the period of lambing.
As the right hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) said, whereas 99 per cent. of walkers will behave very well indeed, and will have some consideration for the countryside and the animals there, from time to time there will be someone who is capable of causing mayhem.
Generally speaking, landowners and farmers are tolerant people who will welcome and encourage recreational walkers, but it is the 1 per cent. of walkers who step out of line who not only spoil the experience for other walkers, but make the farmer's or landowner's job so difficult.
Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough): It is my experience in Leicestershire that expectant sheep, expectant cattle and expectant birds cannot count or tell the days of the week. I wondered whether the animals in my hon. Friend's part of the country, or in any other part, were cleverer than the sheep and other animals in my part of the country. Is my hon. Friend convinced that the number of days that the Government intend to prescribe will have any bearing on the way in which animals behave as they come near to delivering their young?
Mr. Gill: I am tempted to tell my hon. and learned Friend about the local agricultural journalist in our area, whose gag is to tell the readers not to put the tup into the sheep at night, so that the farmer does not have to be up at nights lambing.
The short answer to my hon. and learned Friend's question is no, of course the animals do not know what day of the week it is or whether it is the weekend.
The exclusion of weekends from the possibility of the farmer being able to close off his land is entirely impracticable. I do not understand why anyone should consider that, during lambing, the exclusion of the weekend is acceptable. In any event, the amendment proposing that the 28-day period should be extended to 40 seems eminently sensible. Even though it is possible these days, with the development of modern techniques, to condense the lambing period, it is still unreasonable to expect farmers in the hills to compress their lambing within the 40 days that is now being proposed.
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My hon. Friend the Member for South-East Cambridgeshire was right to point out the perversity of the provisions in circumstances where farmers and landowners need to generate additional income. They have been exhorted by the Government to do just that by diversifying and finding other ways of producing an income so that they are not entirely dependent on agriculture, which we know is going through a difficult time. An unreasonable restriction is being imposed, and the period should be extended.
The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) talked about the problems of definition. That is inevitable. Once a decision is taken to legislate in any area, there will be problems of definition. Problems are occasioned by the difficulty of protecting everybody's interests following the decision to legislate in a particularly difficult area. However, that decision having been made, we must ensure that as far as possible--this is the purpose of the amendments--the Bill's provisions strike a fair balance between the interests of all the parties, and that is not easily done. It is certainly not easily achieved if hon.
Members who take part in the debate fail to appreciate--or do not want to do so--the practical difficulties that are faced by those who depend on the land for their living.With these brief remarks, I hope that the Government will accept the amendment and increase the number of days from 28 to 40, and accept also the amendment dealing with the definition of land.
Dr. David Clark (South Shields): I urge my right hon. Friend the Minister not to accept the advice that he has received from the Opposition Benches, which is unfounded and does not fit the balance correctly. I am bemused by some of the comments of Opposition Members.
I speak as someone who was brought up in the Cumbrian hills. I started my working life on the land in the Cumbrian fells. I suspect that I know as much about that part of England as anyone in the Chamber. I find the discussion about a new situation that is suddenly before us bemusing. We are talking about people having a right of access to upland, farmland and elsewhere, as if that were something new that would cause many unforeseen difficulties. That is not the case.
In Cumbria, because of the Law of Property Act 1925, the vast majority of commons, because they were under old urban districts--anyone who knows Cumbria will understand that they are very rural--have provided access on foot for everyone to exercise. In addition, the rest of the commons are virtually owned by the National Trust, and there is complete and free access. I can think of only one serious mountain top in Cumbria where there is not supposedly free access.
We are not staring into the unknown. We know what the position is and farmers know what the position is. The Cumbrian farmers have learned to live with it and they compete favourably with upland farmers elsewhere in the United Kingdom. I concede that it is a matter of balance, but the Government have got that balance about right with 28 days.
Lambing has been debated at great length tonight, but the lambing season in the upland areas is not long. Early lambing is done inside. The climate is such that there cannot be an extended lambing season in the upland areas. Of course, the provision could cause the odd difficulty--that is inevitable in life--but, with good farming practice, such problems can be accommodated.
Therefore, I ask my right hon. Friend the Minister not to change his viewpoint. For the past almost 75 years, we have seen how, in one large tract of upland area, we have managed to live with access, which is perhaps far greater than in most parts of the country, while still managing to sustain a viable farming industry.
Mr. Swayne: Recently, I attended a farm open day on a Sunday in my constituency. That open day involved charging for access to the land. It was not a commercial operation, but a public relations operation on behalf of farming. Nevertheless, the charge for access to the farm was £2.50 per adult, with children being allowed access free. There was a farmers' market and an extensive farm tour on trailers attached to tractors which took more than an hour. I would estimate that some 2,000 people took the farm tour that day.
Undoubtedly, not all the land that was available that day would have been subject to the right of access, but I estimate that about half of it would have been. That was not a commercial undertaking, but given my estimate of 2,000 people attending, there appears to be a commercial demand for such an activity, particularly at weekends. Would such an activity fall within the definition of land management in amendment No.98, and is that an appropriate way to encourage farmers to augment their income in these difficult times?
I have no doubt that, if so, that is precisely the sort of activity for which the amendments should cater by providing for a period of more than 28 days and access at weekends. It would be impossible to have arranged such an undertaking, charging people for access to land and laying on the farmers' market and the tour, while that land was openly available to anyone under the right of access. It would have had to have been closed for such an undertaking to have remained a success.
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