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Mr. Meacher: Clause 24 allows the relevant authorities to make direction to exclude or restrict public access in the interests of nature conservation of heritage preservation.
In Committee, we recognised the merit of an amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath), which would allow any person to be appointed for the purpose of determining the precise period of the closure or restriction. It would allow, for example, a wildlife trust with a short lease of the land to determine the period of closure in order to protect rare plants while they are in flower. Amendments Nos. 152 and 153 give effect to our undertaking in Committee, and I therefore commend them to the House.
Clause 30 enables the Secretary of State or, in Wales, the National Assembly, to make regulations relating to the exclusion or restriction of access under chapter II. Amendment No. 166 allows for regulations to prescribe the form of a notice or application under certain provisions of chapter II.
The use of forms may assist landowners by ensuring that they are aware of all the information that is required from them when making an application or posting a notification, and will ensure that the relevant authorities receive all the information that they require in order to undertake their responsibilities.
Government amendment No. 167, with consequential amendments Nos. 186 and 188, would enable the Secretary of State or the National Assembly to make regulations restricting applications from commoners under clause 22, which deals with land management, or clause 23, which covers avoidance of risk of fire or danger to the public. It responds to an undertaking which my hon. Friend the Minister gave my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Kidney) in Committee.
I acknowledge the anxieties that my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and the Countryside Agency raised about the difficulties that could arise if many people with
rights of common access over an area of open country chose to seek separate directions under chapter II. Government amendment No. 167 would ensure that powers would be available to the Secretary of State and the National Assembly to regulate such applications, for example, to specify that applications should be made jointly.I shall now deal with the Opposition amendments, especially amendment No. 11. Clause 21 gives landowners and others who have an interest in the land an absolute entitlement to exclude or restrict access as they think fit, for any reason, for up to 28 days each year. While that inevitably places constraints on when the new right of access can be exercised, it is reasonable to allow those with an interest in the land the flexibility to close land, or otherwise restrict access without needing to seek anyone's permission. I believe that hon. Members from all parties share that view. Again, it reflects our wish to apply a light touch to the statutory framework and keep burdens on landowners to a minimum.
I shall tackle the more controversial issue of the length of time. Determining the figure of 28 days has inevitably been a matter of judgment. There is nothing sacrosanct about it. We have been guided, not by the fact that the figure is used in other legislation, but, as I said earlier, by our judgment about the occasions when landowners and others might need to exclude the public. I listened carefully to the hon. Member for South-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Paice), who made an effective and passionate speech. However, in all honesty, it is difficult to envisage many such occasions, especially those that take us beyond 28 days.
It is hard to imagine how people walking across uncultivated land, away from buildings, would generally interfere with others who were using the land. My hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) made that point effectively. Shooting is perhaps one of the few examples. There has already been much discussion about that in Committee and elsewhere.
Our understanding is that grouse moors, even large ones, are highly unlikely to sustain shooting for 28 days. Moreover, the Bill allows closure or restriction of up to 28 days of any parcel of land. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) also made that point. It should not be overlooked--the hon. Gentleman did not overlook it--as it gives those managing the land far greater flexibility than if closures applied to all the landholdings. For example, those involved in grouse management will be able to close or restrict access to different parts of their land for up to 28 days, assuming that they believe that restrictions are necessary. The total number of days on which closures or restrictions are in operation on different parts of a large estate could therefore considerably exceed 28 days.
The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome presented an ingenious argument in terms of ribbons, if I can so describe it, against my proposal in Committee on the abuse of closures. I accept that the discretion to close different parcels of land could be abused, for example, by closing concentric circles on different days.
It being Ten o'clock, further consideration of the Bill stood adjourned.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 15 (Exempted business),
- That, at this day's sitting, the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.-- [Mr. Kevin Hughes.]
As amended in the Standing Committee, again considered.
Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
Mr. Meacher: As I was saying, such closures would quickly fall into disrepute and would be almost impossible to enforce or signpost. I do not think that abuses are likely to be frequent, or effective in reducing access.
If we have erred at all, I think that we have erred in favouring the landowner rather than the public. The Government believe that a power to exclude or restrict access for up to 28 days in any year as of right is more than adequate, and that an increase is not justified.
As for the question of whether landowners should be allowed as of right to close their land at weekends as part of their 28-day entitlement, I accept that a very balanced judgment is involved. I listened carefully to what was said, and I think all hon. Members agree that we must balance the needs of those who manage the land with our aim to give millions of people more and better access to the open countryside. It is obvious that weekends will be popular with walkers, and I have heard the arguments suggesting that they are also necessary for farmers. The Government would therefore be wary of any proposals that could be used to frustrate the genuine intentions of the legislation.
I accept that amendments Nos. 16 to 18 do not seek to add Sundays or bank holidays to the discretionary closure arrangements. I also accept that they reflect genuine concerns about potential conflicts between access and shooting. We have thought carefully about the case for including Saturdays as part of the discretionary entitlement, but we are not persuaded of that case. If we accepted the amendments, land could be closed every Saturday throughout spring and summer. That may not be the intention, but it could happen. I am more attracted to a more modest amendment--No. 31, tabled by Liberal Democrats in Committee. Giving those entitled to discretionary closures the right to exclude or restrict access for up to four Saturdays or four Sundays is, I think, a much more reasonable proposition.
Finally, let me deal with the whole question of land management, and the various comments about our attitude to it. In fact, our attitude involves giving land management a pretty wide meaning. We do not consider it sensible to provide an exhaustive list of definitions. Such a list would certainly include agricultural and forestry activities as well as shooting--I am happy to place that on record--but defining land management in the way proposed by amendment No. 98 risks excluding activities that should fall within the scope of the Bill.
I may be asked for an example. This was hinted at by others. Amendment No. 98 would not allow for a non-profit-making activity, such as a pop festival, to take place on the land. However, I should add that we do not intend "land management" to embrace nature conservation, which is dealt with by directions made under clause 24.
Clause 21(7) already allows regulations to be made to vary the days on which access can be excluded or restricted. That means that if, in the light of experience, it becomes clear that there is a case for including some Saturdays in the discretionary entitlement, the Secretary of State will have the power to amend the days as necessary.
I hope that that reassures the hon. Member for South-East Cambridgeshire. I assure the House that we shall continue to listen carefully to views expressed about discretionary closures. I recognise that a difficult judgment has to be made, and we are still trying to get the balance right, but for the reasons that I have given, I ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the amendment.
Mr. Paice: I appreciate the Minister's comments on land management and want to put on record the fact that he includes shooting under that heading, but I am much less persuaded about 28-day or 40-day closures and weekends. The right hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) and the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) sought to pour scorn on my comments about farming and especially lambing, which were supported not only by Conservative Members, but by other Opposition Members. The right hon. Gentleman said that farmers know that there is no problem, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) said, I would far rather heed the views of the National Farmers Union, which specifically said:
- We believe that the 28 days specified in the Bill is far too short a time period. Often lambing can take place over a six-week period and it is imperative that ewes and lambs are not disturbed during this time.
The Minister said that grouse moors are unlikely to have to sustain shooting for 28 days. He is right, but shooting is only part of managing those moors. Shooting may constitute a large part of it, but 28 days is inadequate when the other activities are included. The Minister also said that, if the partial closure method were used on a large estate, parts of the moor could be closed for more than 28 days, but I stress that not all the land that we are considering is part of large estates. Some of the land in Snowdonia, to which the right hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) referred, may be owned by large estates, but it is certainly not farmed as such; it is farmed by small operations, for which partial closure would not be an option.
The Minister said that moors could be closed all spring and summer if amendment No. 31, on Saturdays and Sundays, were adopted. I have to tell him that people do not shoot in the spring and the summer. Therefore, his argument is wrong if closure for shooting purposes is right.
I want to take this opportunity to say that I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Caernarfon is retiring at the next election. I was sorry that he won 20 years ago, but I shall be sorry to see him go.
We in the Conservative party are the first to recognise that the vast majority of walkers are responsible people who will take heed of the problems that they could cause. Equally, we are the first to recognise that the odd landlord or landowner will want to use whatever opportunity he
has to thwart the Bill. There are rogues in every group in society--that is a fact of life. The amendment is intended to balance the rights and opportunities of landowners and land users, who will be given rights under the Bill, and I commend it to the House.Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The House divided: Ayes 155, Noes 294.
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