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10.2 pm
Dr. David Clark: I am pleased to take part in the Third Reading of this historic Bill. It may not be the Bill that certain Conservative Members would like, but it is historic because it charts new waters for this country and its people. I am indebted to the Minister for the Environment and to the Under-Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin), for all their work and for the way that they have kept an open mind on many of these issues.
Everyone in this country who is interested in outdoor recreation, nature conservation or wildlife feels that the Bill is a step forward. Every 20 years or so we have such a Bill, we move forward and then events in nature overtake us and we have to take action once again. The measure in the Bill that pleases me most is that on access to open spaces.
Ever since I entered the House, almost 30 years ago to the day, alongside my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Environment, I have been pressing for such a measure. It was not only me: I was just one of a long line of socialist politicians. I am a politician, and I do not think that any of us, in this Chamber of all places, should apologise for being politicians. We believe in this measure, and, ever since the Labour party's inception, people have been striving to achieve it. We finally have a Labour Government who have done so. I am proud of the Labour Government and of the fact that they have delivered this manifesto promise. I am conscious of the fact that, in my constituency stretching back over 70 years, its three Labour Members of Parliament have all introduced private Members' Bills to achieve this measure. We all failed, but it looks like the Government may now be succeeding.
I shall move on from that issue to make a point about national parks, which were discussed by Conservative Members. I recognise that many of them have experience of the countryside, but I hope that they will recognise that many Labour Members have equal experience. Indeed, I might even suggest that our experience is more relevant than that of many Conservative Members as we live in, and represent, the upland areas, which will be particularly affected by the Bill's access arrangements.
I look forward to national park status being extended to the New forest, and perhaps to the downs, but we must take local people with us if we can. National parks have many pluses for them as well as for business and we must build a consensus and co-operation in that respect. National parks are not only areas of outstanding natural beauty, but places to go to enjoy quiet recreation. That makes them stand out. However, because of the
development of the internal combustion engine and of four-wheel drives, motorised vehicles represent an increasing threat to rural Britain, especially national parks and affluent areas.Speaking from experience of the Lake district and with the consent of the Lake district planning board, I plead with my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Environment: I hope that we will reconsider whether we can do anything to alter the traffic regulations to allow us to control the use of motorised vehicles off the metallic roads in the national parks. That is very important, as is the issue of quietness in this modern world. Only last weekend, I came down off Helvellyn, looked over Ullswater to see the sailing boats there and quietly blessed the Under-Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South, for his decision to ban speedboats on Windermere.
The 10 mph speed limit on Windermere was long overdue. It was introduced by the local authority and the planning authority and then considered by the planning inspectorate, which upheld it. The previous Government could not go along with it, but my right hon. Friends called it in again and reconsidered. Most of those who know the Lake district will applaud that example of trying to get a bit of quiet in these areas.
During these two days of debate, it has been interesting to hear Conservative Members make a case against access, but they did so as if there was no previous experience. I do not want to repeat what I said yesterday, but there is 75 years of experience of open access in that huge area, the English Lake district. Of course there have been difficulties. The Lake district planning board has had problems, but it has learned to work with the farmers who keep the landscape as we want it. I shall not pretend that things will be easy, but we have to learn from that experience and transfer it to other parts of the country in which we have access.
In our debates, we inevitably cite extreme cases to make our points, but I say to Conservative Members that the situation will not be anywhere near as difficult as they think. I believe that, if we can work one side with the other, we can achieve what we all want: allowing all our citizens to enjoy more and more the beautiful countryside in our United Kingdom.
10.9 pm
Mr. David Heath: I join the right hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) and others in thanking everyone connected with proceedings in Committee, including the Clerks, our four Chairmen and the members of the Committee. It was a delight to serve because the Committee handled its business constructively. Most importantly, Members from both sides of the House engaged in the debate. Sometimes, Government Back Benchers do not have the opportunities to express their views. That did not happen in the Committee. They played an important and constructive role. I am grateful to them for that.
The right hon. Gentleman said that it was a good and perhaps historic Bill. I agree. It is potentially historic. It is certainly important. It is, in essence, a good Bill, but it is flawed. That has been my concern throughout the proceedings.
We have an important vehicle for conservation legislation. As has been said many times, such Bills do not come along very often, yet some areas of conservation
reform have not found their way into the Bill. We have discussed biodiversity action plans, which are an essential element. No one is looking for a uniformity of approach, but we are looking for a commonality of intent. That is missing.We still await the proposed changes on areas of outstanding natural beauty. I agree with the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Green): we in the Chamber should have been told what the Government intended. By all means let it then be considered in another place and returned to us, but the announcement should have been made here during consideration of the Bill.
There have been less important--although they are still important--areas of consideration, such as the hon. Gentleman's amendment on invasive aquatic species. That should be in the Bill.
Again, the provisions on rights of way are important. There are important improvements, but there is a lack of provision for recreational riding, which is a missing component. The proposals lack clarity. The most important element of all is the resources that will underpin effectiveness of the rights of way improvement plans, which we hope will succeed.
On access, the thing that has bedevilled the Bill is the expression "right to roam". It has raised the expectations of both those in favour of the Bill and those against--expectations that it does not for one moment meet. People have the idea that, as a result of the Bill, they will find people with bobble hats in their chrysanthemum beds. They will not. It is essentially a modest move to increase access to upland areas and open countryside. We wholeheartedly support that.
Where we differ from the Government is that we see that there are difficulties with the definitions within the Bill; with the effect on agriculture--there is an apparent lack of understanding of agricultural practice--and with clarity, which will be essential if the thing is to work properly in practice, so that walkers, landowners and those who work the land know what their rights are. The provisions on liability and compensation lack clarity. All those are essential elements that will need to be debated in another place. They will have to be resolved before the Bill comes back to us.
We have ranged wide in our discussions on the Bill. We have gone from the floating pennywort to the prevalence of llamas in Llanberis. It has been an interesting journey. We must decide today whether, on balance, the Bill sufficiently covers the various points that we have raised to give it support. The view of the Conservative Opposition is that it does not. They have tabled a reasoned amendment stating some of the deficiencies of the Bill; I agree that there are deficiencies. In their view, on that basis, they should reject the Bill tonight.
I do not take that view and will advise my right hon. and hon. Friends to support the Bill. However, that does not alter the fact that substantial improvements need to be made in another place before the Bill becomes law. We will seek those amendments elsewhere and when the Bill returns to the House.
10.14 pm
Mr. Kidney: I realise that the Bill has reached the halfway point, in that the whole process will now be repeated in the other place, but I think that I am entitled to talk of successes at this stage.
There is the success represented by Labour's delivering on a manifesto promise, and translating the right of access to open countryside into legislation. There is the success involved in the attempt to modernise our complex law of rights of way, and the delivery of new entitlements for which landowners have waited for many years--entitlements to divert and close rights of way that, over many years, have become out of date and inconvenient, and have got in the way of businesses that want to make money. All those developments are welcome, although the subject is so complex that further refinements will be needed before the Bill completes its passage.
The Bill has achieved a further success in protecting wildlife. It has strengthened the protection of sites of special scientific interest, strengthened police powers to gather evidence of crimes against wildlife, and strengthened the powers of the courts to punish those who are caught committing such crimes. Nevertheless, I hope that there will be further developments in part III before the Bill returns to the House of Commons.
The final success that I want to cite is one that many Members have already mentioned: the success of the parliamentary process. In that context, the Bill has given us a model to follow in future. Even before its publication, there was full consultation. As all Members who have taken part in our deliberations know, the Government received many responses, and responses of good quality. I think it fair to say that they developed policy and changed decisions as a result of some of those responses. We also conducted ourselves well in Committee. The official Opposition had a forceful, although principled, objection to part I. They presented their arguments with reason and certainly with vigour, but never with excess verbiage. I congratulate them on that.
Let me also draw attention to the contribution of the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath). Acting single-handedly on behalf of his party, he not only followed proceedings throughout the Committee stage but was one of the main movers in Committee. Despite having no support, he tabled detailed amendments, to the extent of proposing improvements in the wording of parts of the Bill. He spoke with authority about his amendments and those of others. I think that he can claim credit for improving the legislation.
The Government also deserve credit for the number of promises made in Committee that were redeemed on Report. That is thanks to the Ministers who have seen the Bill through this part of the parliamentary process.
Lastly, I give a pat on the back to myself and to my Labour colleagues who took part in the Committee stage. As both the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome and my right hon. Friend the Minister said, we were not silent. We were not mute. We did not simply vote at the right times when required to do so. We contributed fully to the debate; we spoke, and moved amendments. I have been pleased to note the number of amendments proposed and spoken to by me which, yesterday and today, have been translated into the Bill as a result of Government amendments.
So far, the whole thing is a success, although it has some way to go in the other place. I hope that Members of the other place will take account of the detailed process that has already taken place. I hope that they will respect
what has happened so far, that they will interpret the clues they have been given about ways in which the Bill can still be improved, and that we shall end up with an Act of which the House of Commons can be proud and which will survive for many years.
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